Bobby Jones? Really?
Posted by metro on 8:30am, Tuesday September 22nd 2009
Historically, the New York Mets franchise has been known for a few things. The apple in CF, their not so fantastic win-loss record, those blue and orange jersies and pitching. Through the years pitchers such as Tom Seaver, Nolan Ryan, Jerry Koosman and Dwight Gooden have donned Mets uniforms. But more recently while the rhetoric from our general managers (Phillips, Duquette and now Minaya) has continued to bang the drum regarding the team being built on “pitching and defense”, the pitchers coming through the system have left a lot to be desired.
The last pitcher to come through the Mets system and make the all-star team for the Mets is Bobby Jones back in 1997. Not to take anything away from Bobby, as he was our best pitcher for a stretch of a few years but it is kind of depressing that the Mets have been so poor cultivating pitching.
Here is normally where people say “well if Wilpon wasn’t so cheap the Mets could go over slot!!” and trust me, I hate the fact that they don’t go over-slot as much as the next guy but these excuse is a total cop-op. The Minnesota Twins currently have Scott Baker, Kevin Slowey, Glen Perkins, Nick Blackburn and Brian Duensing all currently on their 2009 staff, the Dodgers have Kershaw, Billingsley, Broxton, the Phillies have Hamels, Happ, Myers… ok you get the picture.
The Mets inability to produce homegrown pitching hurts them two-fold. First, they obviously don’t have good young (and cheap) pitchers to put along side high paid pitchers like Santana and Oliver Perez to keep the payroll within reason without sacrificing other areas. Second, the rest of the teams in baseball value pitching just as the Mets do so while a prospect may not be great, a guy like Glen Perkins or Brian Duensing likely has more trade value than a Daniel Murphy/Nick Evans.
The most perplexing thing about this unability to produce pitching is the far reaching scope it has reached. Again, 12 years and 3 Gm’s since 1997 (our last homegrown all-star pitcher). The Mets have had 1st round busts since then… Goetz, Humber, Heilman (as starter), and now potentially Pelfrey. The Mets have had injuries to top prospects (Paul Wilson, Bill Pulsipher, Jason Isringhausen) The Mets have had international signings (Deolis Guerra), and the Mets have had late round picks come in and pitch well at lower levels (Evan MacLane, Dylan Owen etc) only to flame out.
Some of the recent blame has to fall to Omar Minaya. The 2007 draft the Mets took 7 pitchers out of their first 9 picks and only 2 seasons later only Scott Moviel, Brant Rustich and Eric Niesen appear to have any chance at MLB success with first pick Eddie Kunz looking more and more like a bust and Nathan Vineyard retired. The 2006 draft doesn’t look much better with Mulvey being a middling 5th starter prospect now with Arizona, Joe Smith a run of the mill reliever, John Holdzkom a knuckle-headed kid who is always hurt and Steven Holmes and Scott Schafer no longer with the team (that would be 5 out of our first 6 picks for this of you at home). The Mets proceeded to sign only 3 pitchers out of their first 11 picks (the latter 2 being 10th round soft-tosser Darin Gorski and 13th rounder HS lefty Zach Dotson)
Put down the bottle of whiskey, things could be improving. Jenrry Mejia probably has the highest upside of any Mets pitcher in recent memory and Brad Holt (AA struggles aside) has the upside of a better John Maine. The Mets have a few other interesting arms in the system with Rustich, Niesen, Moviel, newly signed Juan Urbina and the “Big 4″ in Savannah (Allen, Familia, Carson, Beaulac) but Omar Minaya and the Mets ABSOLUTELY need to put an emphasis on drafting pitching in next years draft with the Mets picking high in every round it is a necessity to come out of the draft with 3-4 arms we can look forward to.
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The problem is also trading pitchers away too early, not the inability to draft and develop them.
Scott Kazmir, Jason Isringhausen, and Heath Bell all made all-star teams after we gave up on them. And we gave away Lindstrom and Owens, the two hardest throwers in the system, in one fell swoop.
Let’s just hope they bring someone in to help Parnell and Pelf develop before we watch them wear another uniform in an all-star game.
Very true, Kazmir was the only one of the group however that I thought we even should have hung on to. Bell I had no desire to keep and I don’t think he would have EVER made an allstar team here. Issy it was time for him to go, he would never been able to get past the hype and disappointment that would have followed him here.
I will say this however, the fact that the only names we can come up with are Kazmir who has struggled and then two relievers is sad.
Heath Bell was 29 years old when we traded him with a 4.92 era with the Mets in 81 games, the problem was the return Minaya got for Bell not trading him. He clearly didn’t get along with Rick Peterson and short of firing Peterson (which was a bad move even now) Bell was never going to be much here. Matt Lindstrom is a bit of folklore. He has a 5.79 era 1.63 whip this year and for his career a 1.44 whip, would it be solid to have him? Sure. But only Kazmir and Isringhausen (who was traded for Kevin Brown, which would have been a GREAT return) only to have the trade rescinded because of his arm issues. As for Henry Owens, it appears the Mets were right about his delivery as he blew out his arm and hasn’t seen the bigs in 2 years. You brought up Scott Kazmir, Jason Isringhausen and Heath Bell as the best examples of pitchers the Mets have traded away… which spans 10 years (Izzy in 1999), not exactly impressive by the Mets.
I brought them up as we drafted several pitchers who made all-star teams in this period. And there may be more.
If we had Kazmir, Bell and Lindstrom last year, might we have won one more game?
Agreed that Owens may never be anything, but check out his one unreal year at AA.
Nobody is debating that Owens had an amazing year at AA but keep in mind he was a 27 year old converted catcher with an odd delivery that had the Mets concerned. Also, while I am a very vocal critic of Minaya, the Mets got back Jason Vargas whom at the time was one year removed from a very impressive rookie campaign (he even got ROY votes) and was a 24 year old lefty starter
I actually liked the trade. Vargas had experience but was rushed and Bostick is still a guy who could turn into something.
that, and both were at the point they would have been lost in the rule 5 (or become MiL FAs). In any case, they would have had to be on the mets the next year, and they did not feel there would be room for them, or that they were ready.
so, Omar converted them into 2 much younger LH arms with years of MiL time left.
Yup, it’s a trade he gets unfairly ripped for. Really did people expect the Mets to keep to AA pitchers on their roster all year?
He converted the two hardest throwers in the system into one guy who has yet to see a MLB game, and one guy who is currently getting shelled for the Mariners.
Part of the point here is that he should have gotten MORE for the two hardest throwers in the system; it is not just all about what Owens and Lindstrom did or did not develop into.
the minors are full of guys that throw hard, and go nowhere.
Heck, right now Parnell is the hardest thrower on the staff. Probably followed by Stokes. And where is that getting us?
throwing a straight FB 98 right down the pipe, without any plus other pitches or moevment, is not a recipe for LT success.
Yup, then Omar got ripped for trading Bannister who most likely could have competed for a #5 slot for a guy that threw 100.
So Parnell and Stokes are major parts of the problem this year?
I agree Stokes is probably as good as he will get, but Parnell definitely still has potential, as he pretty clearly showed early in the season.
Of course throwing a straight fastball is useless at any speed without other pitches and great location, but a real pitching coach may very well be able to coax a lot more out of Parnell’s fantastic arm.
I agree, the problem is that EVERYONE knew that he had to trade those guys and most likely EVERYONE knew that Owens could not sustain his success. Thus the fact that he got a guys like Vargas and Bostick who did not turn out is justifiable. Vargas rushed at the age of 22 came up and was 5-5 with a 4.03 ERA for the Marlins in 2005 and then struggled his 2nd year like many do. The Marlins then gave up on him.
Bostick was a 23 year old LHSP who had risen one level each year and was improving dramatically. His last year with the Marlins between AA and AAA he was 9-9 with a 3.74 ERA and 139 K’s in 142 innings.
Sure, but can we play that game Kingman? Would we have had Santana if we had Kazmir? Would we have traded Pelfrey and had garbage pitching in his spot?
Point is still those are some crappy pitchers and even at that Bell was not drafted and was signed as a minor league FA in 1998. So in the last 10 years the only AS pitcher we have drafted was Kazmir.
Interesting point….hard to say.
But if Omar had been able to get Santana for the basket of nothing we got him for, sure, he might still have done that if we had Kazmir.
It’s so hard to play that game. That basket of nothing was still some of our top prospects at the time. And the fact we would have had to be paying Kazmir over 10M either way.
I actually agree, Lindstrom, Bell and Owens were all old and had either been improperly developed by us or needed even more time. How much more time can the Mets give players than 28 years old?
It also works both ways.
If you look at the current staff, they have Maine and Perez, both former young hot shots from other teams that we got when they were still young. Heck, Maine was the Orioles Pelfrey pretty much. And Ollie was a big deal when he first came up.
Even Neive was a big time prospect for the Astros before he had TJ surgery.
if you don’t draft them, at least trade for the rigth ones out of the minors.
Yeah, that is the Mets way, trade their own for others. I think that is the point. We have got to start drafting and developing our own pitchers better because with the price of even #5 starters teams are hanging on to their young pitchers.
also, even though I am far from a draft wonk, I recall reading someplace that this years draft will feature quite a few top power arms (college I believe). With the Mets picking so early, maybe this is the year they finally land a Hanson or other stup SP that arrives fast.
What if Harper is there? Do you draft him instead?
Harper is a no-brainer but he won’t be falling to 6. Early word is he is looking for 8-12 million and even “cheap” teams like the Royals are willing to pay up for the right guy. AJ Cole is a guy I would like to see us target as well as Josh Osich (assuming he successfully makes the move to starter)
Ok last I looked we were up to 6th with a chance for 4/5th and if that happen all small market teams would be ahead of us. I don’t see him falling but it is possible if teams are afraid of what he commands. Should either way get some decent picks. It would be nice if there was a way we could get a supplemental as well but not much of a chance in that.
delgado will be a B. Not sure who els though that they could chance offering arb too (now that Wagner is gone!)
wonder how much Degado would get in an arb hearing? Probably more than they would be willing to pay.
Yeah, although they don’t have to go by the 20% rule I don’t see it going less than 40% which would be 6M guaranteed and that is too much for me. Even at that he would most likely counter with 8M and it’s very possible the arbitrator would choose the 8M or the Mets would settle at 7.
probably, but I really don’t see him falling to where the Mets will pick (7ish?) unless something goes majorly wrong with him this season. He does have a year of community college ballbefore the draft, right?
Either that, or the Mets won’t want to pay the ridiculous signing bonus Boras will dig in for, and you know that even if he falls to #7, Boras will hold him out for strasburg money!
I think a lot will depend on the current crop.
Mejia, Holt, Niese, Gee are all 1-2 years away. Obviously Niese will be competing for the #5 slot already and Gee was expected to before his injury.
A+ and AA should have very good rotations this year if guys stay healthy 9always a big if). Not sure how it will work out in Buffalo though..
Sadly, Gee’s arm is a major concern. A labrum tear is often career threatening and since he was already a “soft-tosser” he can’t afford to lose ANYTHING on his fb.
But wouldn’t it hurt him less than say a guy who relies on his speed?
They have really kept us in the dark about him all year too.
He got hurt this winter (winterball was a curse to the Mets this year), he pitched through it, they had him rehab it, then decided he needed surgery then again decided to rehab it again. As for “hurting him less”, I feel otherwise. You need a base speed enough to keep hitters honest. Working 88-90 is acceptable even from a righty if your control and secondary pitches are spot on, but if Gee loses ANYTHING off that and is now an 85-88 mph pitcher hitters can sit on his breaking stuff because they don’t have to “fear” his FB. Sadly we also lost Ryan Coultas who looked like he was a potential power bullpen arm.
gee was always borderline anyway. Somewhere between and organization arm, and a back of the rotation guy if he relaly mastered his control.
still, that is valuable to have on hand.
Yeah, they were just hyping him as a #5 guy. Not much more than that but still that’s worth 10M these days.
switching gears, since I just mentioned delgado, I am warming up to a 1 year incentive laden deal if they can pull it off. They could use the bat, especially if you don’t trust murphy to develop quick enough and want frenchy 7, and the other choices aren’t that attractive (certainly not what you can get on a 1 year deal).
having delgado/frenchy hitting 6th and 7th does seem to add the needed power to the lower part of the lineup
TS wants Branyan, right? ALthough he really tailed off in the 2nd half, and is hurt now I think.
I am guessing we are stuck with murphy or one of the other in house guys for $$ reasons though, but hopefully that means more $$ for SP and LF.
can anyone think of another 1B bat that they might be able to get for 1 year that still can bring something to the table?
I am still willing to roll the dice on Pena if he really is a salary dump, although I bet then they go young and cheap in LF. Could stil lwork out though.
I’m on board for Delgado depending on how greedy he is. 1 year 4-5 million base, 3-4 in incentives (keep in mind the incentives will still count toward the 2010 payroll)
Yeah, I am fine with Delgado IF he can prove some health. At this point he could not ask more more than a Hudson type deal. Also, to Metro’s point yeah the incentives will still count but if he is getting that many AB’s then he will most likely be playing well and or we will be doing well. Otherwise at that salary he would have been replaced.
Trs86,
I meant that Freddy counted Garcia’s incentives toward our 2009 Payroll so when people on this site (or any site) are saying “well we spent 4 on Delgado we have X left” it’s not exactly true, the FULL amount Delgado MAY get is counted by Fred.
Well we have no idea if Freddy counted Garcia’s money against signing another player or not. He may have just been in love with Daniel Murphy.
Just to clarify, the point of my piece isn’t that we are barren in the minors in regard to pitching. I have hopes for Niese, Niesen, Holt, Mejia (my favorite prospect in the system), Allen, Familia, Carson, Beaulac, Matz, Urbina, Moviel and a few others. I merely think the Mets NEED to focus on becoming better at producing pitching. Signing only Matz, Gorski and Dotson in the first 13 rounds isn’t the way to do it.
I agree with you wholeheartedly here. And right now Pelf and Parnell are exhibits 1 and 2….they really have to get these guys to produce more with the arms they have before giving them away and watching them blossom elsewhere.
Let’s hope the new pitching coach–whenever we see him–can develop some of the impressive list you have here of arms currently in our system.
I’m sure it’s not a popular opinion on here but I’m not sure why the Mets thought Parnell would be such a great MLB pitcher (even out of the pen). He was utterly hittable in the minors for a guy who throws 95+ and his k-rate was nothing special. I think he is more a 6th or 7th inning reliever than he is a potential set-up man/closer. What separates Parnell and Stokes?
Good questions. I guess many people feel that when a guy can throw that hard, he is worth trying to develop, perhaps by coaching him into learning another pitch, teaching him to change speeds, etc.
But sure, as Stick says above, throwing 98 is pretty useless if every pitch is straight and at the same speed.
Maybe a Dave Duncan could help him develop? Who knows.
Right now what separates them is 5 years in age. That is a huge plus for Parnell. He still has time to develop into something and will be valuable as a middle reliever or trading chip. I don’t think he has really hurt his value that much because of his age.
I don’t expect much out of Parnell, look at his numbers in the minors and in the majors. He is what he is.
Sean Green is a similar case (with far worse numbers). Poor minor league numbers, poor major league numbers outside of first half of 2008. Green reminds me of end of his Mets tenure Heilman.
Of the under the radar guys, I think Rustich can move fast as a reliever if he can ever stay healthy.
Moviel had somewhat of a discouraging season for me. A guy that big who is touted as a power pitcher should have a good k-rate at the lower levels. He made progress since last year (which I believe was injury marred) but I expect next season to be pivotal in his development.
Niesen made a late move this season. Fongy has seen him pitch and thinks he would at least be a good lefty specialist.
Scott Shaw is another to keep an eye on. He’s a big dude who may not be a top of the rotation starter but has workhorse written all over him.
So out of those guys really no one that can be counted on as a mid-rotation prospect even.
Hard to say that about almost any prospect.
Obviously, Mejia, Holt and Matz are the most likely to project that high. I think Carson and Familia have the potential, as well (just based on following numbers the last couple of years).
No I think Mejia and Holt for sure, I don’t know much about Matz. I also think Familia has that potential. I was referring to the guys you listed above.
Oh… Moviel might be a middle of the rotation guy someday.
Rustich certainly has the stuff to be a frotn end starter. But I don’t think he’ll ever thrown enough innings to get that far.
Rustich unfortunately is currently nursing yet another injury. Moviel tore his meniscus twice and came on strong. I still have hopes for him. Guys that tall take time because there are so many moving parts. Niesen had more than just a late push, he was excellent at St Lucie, got promoted had a few rough starts and then finished with 8-9 straight real dominant starts. He has better pure stuff than Niese. Shaw I am not high on personally. Soft-tosser in the Dylan Owen vain, just happens to be big.