For whom the Berk tolls?
Posted by metro on 10:10am, Monday October 26th 2009
Reportedly Drayton Maclane (owner of the Astros) is now willing to discuss moving Oswalt or Berkman (2 of his favorite players ever) in order to free up salary. Carlos Lee has a full no-trade and has said he would not agree to any move out Texas. Where does this leave us? Well we have a big-time need to add a bat. Berkman He posted a 140+ OPS this year. Last 3 years 131, 159, 140 vs. David Wright 150, 141, 121
Berkman also had a TERRIBLE stretch to open the season (.718 OPS in April/March) the remainder of the season his OPS by month
-.918
-1.061
-1.054
-.818
-.889
Considering he only has one year guaranteed (you may potentially need to guarantee the second year) he is still an EXCELLENT player and depending on talent price would be a fantastic addition. A 1 or 2 year commitment seems like a much better gamble than overpaying guys over 5-6 years. One final note…. don’t bother clicking over to baseballreference.com to point out that Berkman plays have his games in Minute Maid Park and would be coming to CitiField. Berkman sports a career OPS only .10 worse on the road then he does at home.
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In order to “free of salary”??
They need an overhaul!!
Yeah, LOL. If nothing else the Cubs and the Astros are perfect examples for the Mets of what not to do when you want to spend a lot of money.
But yeah, I would take Berkman and Oswalt off their hands.
Great thing about Berkman is he can play LF and 1B (badly but anyway). This provides protection for both. Seems perfect. Interesting, when I looked him up earlier because of this, I was shocked about how young he was. I thought he was 38+.
Agreed BUT no Kings ransom for them.
If their goal is to
free up salary, O.K.
BUT no Meijias,Holts
or Tejadas for two
quickly agingformer
all-stars who are
hard core country boys
who may not even fit in/ want to play in NYC
And I hope that doesn’t offend anyone.
Hmm, I would give up Holts and Tejadas (Not both for one obviously) for Oswalt or Berkman. For sure no Davis, Mejia, etc. Hopefully we can unload Fmart.
Agreed BUT i’m
biased against
FMart since i’ve been saying for yrs
now,having seen
ALOT of him in AA in ‘07
that he’s been way-overated
and at this point I
think were looking
at a Dave DeJesus type player.
At best.
At this point I would take DeJesus out of him. I would take a guy that is solid at best because I am afraid he never will be.
come on, the kids 20 and has always played above his age. Just because he’s hyped and has injuries doesn’t mean he doesn’t have a promising future. Imagine if we’d have given up on Jose when he was coming up. Give the kid a shot. Plus, it’s not like his stock is high right now anyway.
Why should I be high on him? Why should I hang on to him if he can help get Oswalt or Berkman? Why should I expect a player better than DeJesus out of him?
What I mean Case is that hes never show any great particular skill.
He’ll hit some BUT .300,not so sure.
Never gonna be a power hitter,never gonna be a big base stealer and while a good fielder he’s not a CFer.
Again, reminds me of DeJesus.
Nice player but nothing special.
I’ll leave it to the pros as far as trying to project F-Mart, but I see no reason why we should be aiming to get rid of him more than of any of the other prospects.
Even if he’s league avg., I’ll take that. Gotta have those league avg players w/ small contracts if you want to keep and build the Core.
Out of Niese, Holt, Mejia, Davis, Tejada, to me right now he is easiest to part with.
Berkman hasn’t played the outfield since 2007. He is not a bad 1B, he’s a competent league average 1B.
You make it sound like decades. LOL.
I am sure he can still play a little LF if need be.
Okay. Well hasn’t played regularly in the OF since 2004, having played just 50, 47 and 32 games there from 2005-2007 and the -47.2 UZR/150 in 2007 is probably a pretty good reason why.
He hasn’t played regularly in LF since 2003 (at which time he was fluskishly good with an 18.5 UZR/150 — -39.7 the year before and negative eveyr year after).
Can he play a little LF if need be? LOL.
Define little.
0-50 games.
0 sounds much more right to me than 50.
OK. LOL.
I am not sure I see Berkman getting traded. Possibly Oswalt (who has a no trade clause), but know that Berkman is the face of the Astros. While the Astros should trade Oswalt and Berkman and start a rebuilding phase in a major way (they have the worst minor league system of any team), their owner has a “never say die, never rebuild, just reload”. It’s just a shame he’s reloading a BB gun and doesn’t realize it.
My guess is that if Oswalt is traded, they may say screw it and look to move Berkman as well. Their starting pitching is abysmal. I’m sure they would take Ollie and he’d be an improvement. From a talent stand point, that is a scary thought. I know they wouldn’t take on the salary, but you see where I am coming from. They need a lot. Would a we trade Neise, Murphy, Parnell and a low A player or two for Berkman? Or Oswalt for that matter? Would that be enough to get it done?
Which of the 2 would you prefer, as we have needs for both?
NOway should it take that much to get either, especially not one year of Berkman.
No way that it should, but I’m telling you, IF, and that’s a big IF, the Astros ever decide to roll up the white flag and trade these big boys, they won’t do it without getting 1-2 major league ready guys and some minor leaguers.
Then they won’t trade them and will be stuck with them. No way do I trade Murphy, Parnell and top prospects. Not to mention that Niese looks like he is ready to be considered for a #5.
Exactly what you said. They will be stuck with them.
While I dream of the Puma prowling first base for the Mets, it won’t happen. Drayton (sp?) will not rebuild.
Omar’s goal should be first, finding out if The Rays want to move Crawford
who is the most perfect player he
could pick-up this off-season for us
AND focus on learning what it’ll take to sign Lackey,who else will be involved in the bidding AND does he
really want to Pitch in a place like
NYC should he get the best offer from us.
Agreed, but I don’t think there is anyway Crawford will be available. What is there point of trading him at this point? They can get a lot for him at the deadline or they can offer him arbitration and get 2 picks after next year.
Yeah, Crawford would be absolutely perfect for us, especially if Jose is no longer going to be a leadoff speedster. And even if he is, having those two at the top of the order would be amazing.
Hey Figgins might be cheap now. LOL.
UMM, yuck.
Figgins has Chone his way out of NY.
Baseball Reference states that his OPS was 98 points different home/away last year, and about 118 in 2008; could be very relevant for a slow, aging player. You are citing his career numbers.
Aren’t all players aging? LOL.
Brock, your Dolphins cost me
a sweet 5 pick ticket yesterday.
Damn, that sure was a strange game…thought they would lose, but not like that!
Dude, I was already spending the money!
Their season is over.
I just hope they don’t play
spoiler late in the season and
cost my Steelers
home field.
Berkman’s Lefty/Righty splits are pretty bad. If he could be convinced to bat lefty only…
Lackey is priority #1, then strong D w/ decent bat in LF, then we can worry about SP #5, 1B and C.
Off topic, but I think the Rays will be the sleeper team for Lackey or trading for Halladay especially. I think they will realize they will have to get back to the top with pitching.
Even the Murphyiacs should agree that Berkman would be a nice upgrade over at 1B. But, he does get paid quite a bit, so expect to go “budget” in LF.
Berk makes 14.5m in 2010, and his club option is 15 (2mill buyout). SInce he has a full NTC, gotta figure they at least pick that up?
he will, however, probably put up as good numbers as Holliday, for less per year and way fewer years. Of course, there will be a prospect cost (and who could even guess what the lunatic Astros would ask for). At least they have a worse GM than the Mets…
Oswalt scares me. he turns 33 in 2010, and is owed 15 and 16mill the next 2 years. Not really good when his numbers have been trending the wrong way the last couple years.
Just realized something” like TRS noted, these 2 could eb a warning sign to the mets, since they would be bay and lackey in 1-2 years if some team signed them both!
If they were stupid enough to max out their bids like 5/90 for Lackey or 4/60 for Bay, yup.
Another off topic, but I think Bay will be coming to the Mets while the Yanks and RSox fight it out for Holliday.
why wouldn’t Bay stay in Boston? Isn’t Bay cheaper and a Red Sox type player, which they already know and love?
Check out the stories from this weekend. Does not look like Boston is as happy as you think.
Seattle is clearing salary
to sign him.
He’s from up there and wants
to play close to home.
And yes,I know he was born
in Canada but hes
lived most of
his life in
Washington.
Washington, Canada… same thing anyway.
I’d much prefer Holliday to Bay (and of course Crawford, as well). Bay is moving quickly toward statue status in LF.
But Wanny he had no errors in Boston. He is OBVIOUSLY a better defender than Holliday.
Agreed, it would be nice if Omar could get creative and use Frenchy in a deal where we could upgrade RF as well as upgrading LF since I’m not sure they won’t just go with Murphy again @ 1B. I don’t see us doing anything w/Cer since Thole is so close and Santos is servicable.
I fear Omar may just try and upgrade LF, lose out on Lackey,signing a Garland/Wolf type and call it a day.
I hope I’m wrong.
I don’t see a need to upgrade RF right now. No way you can upgrade over Frenchy AND upgrade LF at the same time. IF you trade Frenchy then get ready for Pagan in RF.
an OF of Holliday, Beltran and Pagan would be pretty good.
Can Frenchy be flipped for something else?
Why would we need to trade him though? His value is not high enough to get a SP out of and he is better than Pagan on a full-time basis.
I still can’t understand why people are so ready to dump Frenchy. The guys attitude and ability are enough to give him a chance to prove himself next year.
Tradewise, Pagan would not have much less value than Frenchy because of salary and control.
I’m no Frenchy fan but right now I consider RF occupied as Frenchy has earned a longer look.
Of course, I wouldn’t hesitate to move him if it made sense. But I can’t imagine he’s got much value right now.
Not considering how hard it may be to find 1 OF better than Frenchy, much less 2.
I agree re: Frenchy’s value and him being better than Pagan, but if:
1) you got a big bat like Holliday, and
2) you could fill a hole and slot Pagan in (better D and leads off), you’d have to think about it.
I agree with real. Imo frenchy is too young and has value. Id give him another year, besides no need to go around creating holes. The guy is a good defender at the very least…we could always use one of those.
Pagan is the guy I see having peak value right now (a relative term, of course). He’s still youngish, athletic and coming off a year that might be a breakthrough.
I don’t see him repeating it and even if he does I’m not sure hsi positives outweigh his negatives.
If someone was willing to give me a useful part or two for Angel, I’d have to consider it strongly.
WAIT a minute, how exactly is Pagan a better fielder? He might have more range but is confused more than not.
Besides, we don’t need a lead off hitter. We should have 2. What we need is RBI guys, something that Frenchy has always been able to do.
if you don’t want a leadoff hitter, why do you want Crawford or Figgins?
I agree about RBI’s.
Crawford is not just a leadoff hitter and IS good defensively and appears to have great baseball insticts. Not sure I still want Figgins unless he is cheap and on short term but he is much more versatile than Pagan as well as proven.
And that is why I don’t hold out much hope for us again becoming a contender
next year. I was a big (maybe the biggest) defender of Omar’s Church for Frenchy move BUT unless we really bring in big time players for LF and
1B, I can’t see THAT much of an improvement w/o also bringing in a
legit #1 or 2 SP. My point w/Frenchy is that if someone else had interest
and he could be used a a part of a
larger deal, you move him.
But like I said, I don’t see it happening.
Nor do I see us having anyone but Murphy @ 1B. Mes think Omar will
go hard after a Lfer and not much
more than that. Depending more on the return to health
of everyone than changing maybe 40%
of the roster.
Again, I hope i’m wrong.
Well Fongy, IF the Mets got Holliday and a mid-rotation starter that should be enough to at least get us back to the wild card or if the cards fell right back at the top of the division. There are 100 different ways we can make this team competitive again. I am not one to say the only way is to get ….
Which mid rotation starter?
And even with those two things,dont we need
for everyone else not jsut to be healthy but
return to their top production?
Then, with that, matbe
we become a WC contender again?
Seems to me thats asking alot to go right.
I stiil don’t get your anti-Lackey slant though.
Again, you give me Lackey, Crawford and
the health of the rest
and to me, THAT looks
like a legit WC team.
Don’t have an anti-Lackey slant. I have an anti-5/90 slant only because I know the Mets will not spend much more if any than last year.
I dont like the size of that deal either but if that what the market calls for…
well then so be it.
Are there any other top of the rotation options?
And do we want to contend?
And if we offer that and he says man you guys are desperate how about 5/100?
Do we say sure and keep going up or do we say aw man seasons over can’t get Lackey?
why 5/90? I thought Lackey wanted Burnett money which is 5/80.
Omar has always preached Speed, Pitching and Defense.
So you can’t convince me that he’s not gonna do his best to go after Lackey. It’s the obvious thing to do (see K-Rod).
There’s tons of options that could improve the hitting over what we had last year. But I think they’ll focus more on getting someone that can play good D in the OF considering how big the park plays.
Don’t give up hope yet.
Who knows, there are as many people preaching LF as there are Lackey. I have no idea which direction Omar will go in. It could be Lackey, Delgado and Nady. It could be Holliday, Marquis and Lopez. I have no idea. But to me either of those can win as well as 98 more combinations.
Again, thanks but no thanks to Marquis!
Same with Delgado who I spent two yrs defending.
And is Nady any better than Frenchy?
Pitching, Speed and Defense means focusing
on Lackey and like I said,seeing if
Crawford is available.
Fongy, of course I would rather have Lackey over Marquis but again my point that I have made for 2 weeks is that there is not just 1 plan that can work this offseason there is about 100 plans that can work.
Wanny, starting this down here, I would trade Pagan. It would have to be considered a sell high move. A team like the Royals you would think would love to have a cheap CF/leadoff guy with potential. To us he is a 4th OF to another team needing those things he is a starter. Classic time to trade.
Agreed 100%.
I’m hoping someone is fooled by his athleticism and his impressive batting performance this season.
Last year the Royals traded a very useful and solid relief pitcher for an expensive Coco Crisp. Perhaps they would be willing to take a similar chance this season with Pagan.
Teahen for Pagan?
You’re asking the wrong guy. I’d take anything useful for Pagan!
Teahen is certainly a useful player. But where would you envision him playing? I see him as a glorified utility guy playing all over depending upon injuries and matchups.
I don’t like him as a regular in LF or 1B — unless the other is upgraded, as well.
Utility, which is something we need. Basically a LH Tatis.
I’d be fine with that. And with this crew of knuckleheads and injury riddled freaks, I could see plenty of time for him in RF v. some right handed pitchers, 1B and 2B (assuming they bring in a real LFer).
Actually maybe Fongy is on to something. How about Pagan for DeJesus? Saves Royals 4M. Or perhaps in a salary dump of Meche?
Those scenarios would be better than Teahan, I think. Don’t love DeJesus but he’s a credible player.
I wouldnt mind a package
for DeJesus,
Teahan AND Meche!
I think ur over valuing Frenchy’s D and under valuing Pagan’s. IMO, Pagan’s range is much more valuable in Citi than Frenchy’s arm. Gotta get to the ball b4 you can throw it.
As far as any trades, the question we have to ask is whether it is easier to get via FA a SPer or an OFer.
If it’s easier to get a SPer via FA, then no need to trade Frenchy. If it’s easier to get an OFer via FA and Frenchy can get you a SPer via trade, then you’d have to look at that.
What level of SP are you going to get for Frenchy? There will be plenty of #5 starters on the market.
I think you should look a little deeper at their total defense as well as Pagan’s ability to completely lose focus both in the field and on the basepaths. Besides you are still over looking what what the offense needs.
Pagan was average, at best, in CF this season (where he received the majority of his playing time). His Range Factor was about league average and his UZR/150 was probably below average.
He might be fast but he plays without instincts and brains.
sure, but I was thinking LF where his numbers are much better.
OTOH, I can’t do anything about his brain and instincts except to say he can only get better (if he were to start)
Really, why do we think he would get better with MORE time? Perhaps he gets even MORE exposed with time?
lol, I meant it in the “he can’t get much worse” vein.
But, really, don’t people usually improve when they get regular playing time?
Murph seemed to.
Uh nope, there are many who get much worse with playing time. LOL.
boy you guys are fast lol. I think what we want and what will really happen are in two different universes. Sure berkman and oswalt would solve two big holes on the team and add to that a LFer and we got ourselves a really much improved team. Do i see that realistically happening, of course not. I see murph starting at 1st and we lose out on holiday. I see an outside chance to get lackey so that leaves alot of work in the trade market, a market that had omar tapped into during the trade deadline would have made us at least more competitive. I dont see omar sheading his relcutance to tap into our farm talent in the offseason…
I think Omar gets Lackey, Holliday, Bay or Halladay. He WILL get at least 1 big name. Can’t think of when he hasn’t.
that I agree with.
Berkman is nasty. Even though his stats have tailed off a lil in the past 2 seasons, the guy is a beast. If they want to deal him and or Oswalt, I’m willing to give them a nice amount of prospects. I mean I’d take 4 or 5 years of Berkman over the question mark that is Fernando Martinez in a second. Remember this si still a win now team. Add Berkman and even Oswalt to the mix and your talking a line-up of
Reyes castillo Beltran Berkman Wright Frenchy Santos Pagan..not too shabbby. and a rotation of Johan Oswalt Pelfrey Maine Ollie/Neise..do-able.
Two things occur to me with Mark McGwire becoming the batting coach for the Cardinals:
1) LaRussa is all but guaranteed to return;
2) McGwire will not be able to do his job effectively without “discussing the past.”
I think they already said LaRussa was coming back for one more.
He is. And shame on him
for bringing back McGwire. Especially at
the cost of McRae.
Yep, I told you all he’d be back! You all doubted me! Prismopredictions never fail! (except when they do)
Wow does Cerrone even watch baseball or read articles about baseball? Stunningly poor “mistake” in his latest article.
Answer to first question, no he has proven over and over that he does not have time to actually watch baseball. However he is usually good at reading other articles.
“…bay is the better fielder, with the better outfield arm… but, holliday is the more consistent, well-rounded hitter… to me, holliday is worth the extra financial commitment, over bay, because he’s a bit younger, and, of the two, i think he fits in more with what the Mets need, from his hustle to his approach at that plate…”
Bay is a better fielder? Are you kidding me? Bay is a TERRIBLE LF while Holliday is above average.
I think its more that Holliday is average and Bay is well below average. Neither will get money for their defense. But does he seriously think Bay will get 5/75? I see maybe 3 for 45 with an option as tops.
3/45? I will at least consider him for that. COuld always move him in 1-2 years to the AL to DH if he really can’t play the field.
Dumb question maybe, but I wonder if he ever tried 1B?
He’s tall enough but he has never played it in the majors.
That being said, if he comes I see no need for him to play 1B. Murphy would be fine at 1B and 7th in the order. Also with Davis able to play 1B and LF…
I like Bay for 4 years over Holliday at 6.
Who is Davis?
Oh, Ike. Damn it I need to start eating lunch instead of drinking it.
LOL, it’s OK Wanny. I would not mind having a little liquid derangement myself.
The latest article, I still can’t believe he continues to refer to Bay as a better fielder than Holliday or the fact that Bay will cost 5/75. LOL.
Bay vs. Holliday UZR the past 3 seasons
2007- Bay -11.4 vs. Holliday +14.7
2008- Bay -18.2 vs. Holliday +10.9
2009- Bay -13.8 vs. Holliday + 2.1
at least some of the commenters recognize the “mistake”
ah, screw it. go for the big package of berkman and oswalt.
Oh yeah, that’s 30mill right there…
OK, make it Ollie and (Parnell or Murphy) for those 2. That shifts 18mill from the Astros to the Mets next year, and another 5/6 in 2011 (or 18 if Berkman’s option exercised). Gives the “stros a young SP to pretend to contend, along with a young/cheap ML level prospect type.
Since the mets are supposed to have ~28-32 to spend, it pretty much leaves enough for 1 mid-tier SP, a reclaimation guy, and some cheaper spare parts.
and LF on the cheap of course.
johan/oswalt/pelf/maine/(neise/neive/retread guy/) is your rotation.
castillo
reyes
beltran
berkman
wright
are your top 5, not too shabby.
6-8 are the C (TBD), Frenchy and the LF (some combo of carter, pagan, someone brought in that doesn’t make too much money.
even 6-8 of pagan/frenchy/catcher is respectable.
Why would they take Perez unless we are sending them Mejia and or Davis?
Ed wade is an idiot?
I honestly have no idea if they would. I was about to put an addendum noting that they probably wouldn’t.
the real point is, oswalt and berkman are overpaid at this point, so it is really a huge salary dump, with the Astros saving a ton of money. And the Mets could only afford it if they moved 1 decent sized contract back.
Maybe Wade thinks Ollie would turn it around. Who knows? And of course the specific prospects have to be negotiated, but it does fit with the traditional Astro philosophy of always being a contender!
Berkman is no longer a huge salary dump, he’s only 1 year at this point. But you know, as we stated earlier today, if they can’t get good prospects they will just hold on and suffer through another year or two. Bottom line Oswalt, Lee and Berkman are still selling tickets.
Still 14.5 million this year might be a solid chunk of change for the Astros and he might be insisting on that option be picked up (which I wouldn’t think twice about) 2 years 29.5 million for Berkman seems like a dream scenario to me (depending on the talent price)
But has the owner said they need money?
I’d assume it would take more than Ollie and Parnell/Murph for the pair.
it was ollie/murphy/parnell + the 36 million over 2 years.
But they only owe Berkman 14.5 and then a 2M buy out.
Interesting comment on MCBlog.
Mets catchers combined for this last year:
583ab / 147h / 32d / 2 t / 13hr / 83 RBI / 46 r / 45 bb/ 86 k / .252/.306/.381
Yet people are calling for Santos to be gone but are comfy with those same numbers from Murphy.
Except that Murphy is 24, his 2009 OPS was 50 points higher than that, his second half of 2009 slugging percentage was 100 points higer than that and his career line at his young age is .275 .331 .437.
Not to mention Murphy has a solid track record as a minor league hitter, 290 .352 .444, with a final minor league season of .315 .379 .493 whereas Omir Santos is career minor league line was 258 .304 .348 (and he is 28).
The last problem with that is that I haven’t heard any widespread calls for Santos to be gone.
A lot have on other blogs been calling for Santos’ replacement. You also have to take into account positions played Wanny. Those numbers for a catcher are almost average if not average. Those numbers for a 1B are well….
Agreed. All I hear about Santos is that people either want him platooning with someone else, or used as a backup. In those roles, I think he brings something to the table.
Don’t forget that Murphy only played in one AAA game before getting called up. We’re watching him continue to develop when he should have been in AAA getting ready for the big time.
My apologies if this was already said, with 122 comments I didn’t read them all, but
Don’t the Astros “threaten” to trade one or more of their stars every year and don’t they hold onto all of them every year? I will believe them parting with a star when I see it. Until then, I’ll look to other teams and their players for rumor fodder.