Tools Of Ignorance
Posted by GravediggerHebner on 2:56pm, Wednesday October 28th 2009
Perhaps the Mets would be better served by a large piece of plywood behind the plate
“We used no mattress on our hands, no cage upon our face, We stood right up and caught the ball, with courage and with grace.”
-George Ellard, C, 1869 Red Stockings
As Met fans we are all too aware that our favorite team has many holes to fill, and while most of the talk is of acquiring a corner outfielder or a #2 starting pitcher, some attention should also be paid to #2 in your scorebook, the catcher.
In 2009 Met catching duties were split for the most part among 2 players, free-agent-to-be Brian Schneider and former-Yankee-minorleague-afterthought Omir Santos.
Despite his bringing out the best in Oliver Perez (you can look it up), Schneider seems at best 50/50 to be brought back. Santos got his first taste of the majors at age 27 and profiles as a back up. Given that Santos is cost-effective (his salary is so small that Cot’s Contracts doesn’t even list it) and under team control until roughly 2015, it seems fair to operate under the assumption that he will be back.
“It’s funny. All you have to do is say something nobody understands and they’ll do practically anything you want them to.”
-Holden Caulfield, ‘The Catcher In The Rye,’ J.D. Salinger
So, that leaves us with the question: with whom do we pair Santos behind the plate? Fans hungry for homegrown talent hope Josh Thole will be that person. Thole, however, is still a work in progress defensively and despite stellar batting numbers in the minor leagues has not even one game of AAA experience. Today is his 23rd birthday and given these facts perhaps a year of AAA seasoning would be best for his long term future.
Free agent catcher names have been bandied about quite freely over the past few weeks. Yesterday, our good friends at MLBTR unveiled their “Trade Market: Catchers” list. If I were to publish it here I assure you they would sue me faster than Usain Bolt runs 100 meters, so please click on the highlighted link and check out the list. Also helpful is a list of “Triple-A Catching Options From Other Organizations” compiled at the Royals-centric blog Kings of Kauffman. Who on these lists do you think might help the Mets?
Below is a hint at one person who appears on both lists.
No, not Josh Thole, the other guy. Think fictional Texas oilman.
Why exactly would we want someone elses AAA Catcher instead of
Thole,again?
So you’re saying he’s ready for the major leagues?
Looked like to me, both when I saw him
w/Bingo and later in
Flushing.
Well there are two list links and one of them is not AAA catchers but thanks for just casually dismissing/ignoring the other one.
Secondly, I wasn’t exactly thrilled by Thole’s 6 for 31 finish and I think he could use some experience both offensively and defensively at AAA.
The Mets are known for both a lack of prospects and for rushing the few they have, I think it would be a nice change if they actually followed the old “natural progression” route with this one.
But if you’re satisfied that he can do more than hang on for dear life at the major league level then that’s great because you perceive the Mets as having one less hole than I do.
Calm down fella.
I didn’t
dismiss
anything.I just said the
Kid looks about ready.Not to Catch 140gms but to supplement Santos.Thats all.
Look,the positon is always the one w/the least amount of really good players and with
very few exceptions almost every team could use an upgrade there.
Its ofcourse alot easier to have an ordinary player behind the
plate if surrounded by a higher level of talent elsewhere on the field.Ruiz,for instance is if you look at his numbers no big deal BUT on THAT team,hitting 8th
he looks alot better.
Since”the core”isn’tgoing to be broken up,what we need most is good health.
With that,Omar it would seem to me needs to do the following:Legit#2SP,Legit impact bat in LF,a solid veteran BP arm,
a solid veteran Righty bench bat who plays 1B&maybe the corner OF….In
THAT order of
need.Now if we can upgrade
C,2B etc.,
Great.But first things first.
Also,while I wouldn’t object to a Catching
upgrade,
I fear Omar’s focus and we
end up with a Torrealba type of a 3 or 4 yr deal thus,burying Thole.
Lastly,for whatever reason some of you seem very fast to attack and think thats okay BUT when/if I do it,
all are offended.Hows that work exactly?
Many of you have been counting on FMart for a couple yrs and STILL want to rush him
despite the fact that hes neither as physically mature as Thole nor has ever had even a month of his minor league career doing what Thole did at AA last season,playing every day and usually being one,if not the best player on the field.
Other than buying into the always turning,Omar spin machine,
I don’t understand it.
I think alot of the anger directed toward me from time to time here is partly because I don’t buy into Omar’s jive at all.
I guess it depends on what one defines as “attack.”
When you’ve just finished typing and publishing your reasons for something and the first comment is
“Why exactly would we want someone elses AAA Catcher instead of
Thole,again?”
that comment might be perceived as an attack.
and then, by extension what you perceive as my attack is actually my defense.
Wasn’t attacking you doc.
Just a question.
OK, then I have a question for you:
Why does your question end in the word “again?”
Bravo on the heated debate. As normal I am choosing Grave’s side.
The reason you might want someone else AAA catcher is that catcher may be more ready than Thole. Example, Jose Morales.
But hey, you saw him play in AA so he’s ready.
Another point: .329 0.396 0.424 0.820 Thole’s average for the year IN AA.
“nor has ever had even a month of his minor league career doing what Thole did at AA last season”
Fmart for the month of May last season in AAA:
.337 0.378 0.663 1.041 And yes that was a full healthy month, one in which he hit 7HR which by the way is more than Thole has ever hit in a season and only 1 less than he has in his career in over 1500 AB. So before we start declaring Thole ready and Fmart garbage lets let both of them prove themselves at AAA a little while. Now if you plan is to throw them to the wolves next year, that’s fine. But neither are sure things.
Oh and another side note. Fmart is 20 years old and Thole is 22. Fmart finished his AAA season with a .877 OPS and Thole finished AA with a .820 OPS.
Good job Grave.
Well IMO left field is the most pressing need followed by pitching and first base, not necessarily in that order, so while I agree that catcher is also a position that needs to be improved, I don’t think that you can say it’s as high a priority as those other positions.
In that case, I would lean towards giving Thole every possible chance to make the team out of spring training. I have to be honest, by the time he was called up, I was barely watching anymore so I can’t speak that intelligently about him. I do know that he was hitting all right. How was he defensively, calling the game, etc.?
In any event, and this says way more about Brian Schneider than anything else, but I think a strong argument can be made that Thole and Omir is a stronger catching corps that Schneider and Omir. This is your old addition by subtraction in its purest form.
Except in the case of Oliver Perez, who pitched his best when Schneider was behind the plate, I can’t argue about the “addition by subtraction” thing.
I think Thole/Santos has the potential to grow into a stronger catching corps than Schneider/Santos, but I don’t think it’s there yet.
For me, it depends on what my expectations for the team as a whole are. If I expect them to not contend for the post season, I’m fine with a 23 year old singles hitting catching prospect with no AAA experience learning on the job. If I expect the team to be a viable contender, I want something with greater assurance on hand. I learned that lesson last year in LF and I hope it’s fair to say that C is a much more important defensive position than LF.
I believe that the team has a greater chance at success if Thole is given valuable game calling and receiving experience at the AAA level while someone else who already has some experience (and if I’m greedy, perhaps even some success) at doing those things is paired with Santos at the ML level.
I think it would be healthy to tone down expectations as no matter what Omar does this off season, we’ll
still need alot of things to go exactly
to plan to contend.
Do we know whatwe’ll get from Reyes?Will he be healthy?Will Wright
return to being David Wright?Will Beltran’s Knees hold out? And even if they do,is the speed portion of his game gone?Will Murphy improve? Can Castillo get through another season w/o breaking down for good?,What will we get out of Frenchy?,Will Johan come back strong?OR is
this one of these,he won’t revert to form until the 2nd yr out of his injury? Will Maine stay healthy and return to form?,What about Ollie?Who knows what we’ll get from him? What is Pelf exactly? Will KRod be fine or did we just witness the beginning
of the end on another contract which we’d never be able to move?
Can Jerry Mgr at all?
Will Omar panic and set the team back even further?
All legit questions which we need positive answers to. So, to think that going into
2010, almost no matter
Omar does we’ll be
“serious contenders” for anything really is
wishful thinking.
Let’s take this retooling slowly!
Hence, my earlier argument against the likes of 2nd rate players such as Luke Scott and Jason Marquis.
Thank you for elaborating, that helps me understand why you are fine with Thole at the ML level in 2010.
of all your points, the one about K Rod (Will KRod be fine or did we just witness the beginning
of the end on another contract which we’d never be able to move?) really scares me, because I was wondering the same thing.
Your other point (Can Jerry Mgr at all?) Well, obviously the answer is no. The real question will be, can the team overcome it? They will need studly starting pitching, to hide his major flaw of botching up the BP.
Haaa Fongy, you sound like me with all those questions. Remember not to doubt the mets too much…a lot of met fans don’t like that lol
True Dat,but I would have been one of the handful who ran through the jungle instead of drinking the kool-aide:)
Heck,I might be Met biased and brain-washed BUT
I know jive when
I hear it.And Omar is all about the jive.
stickguy says:
Wednesday, October 28 2009 at 4:13 pm
Bill, every team has questin marks. And most probably have more than the MEts overall.
See what i mean Fongy??? ha ha ha
so in your mind we should just sit around and bitch and complain all day and say whoa’s me?
Ninja Turtle!
Pudge, Barajas, Molina or Kendall.
Pudge can’t be too expensive. No one even wanted him last year.
How about Castro? He caught a no hitter. Plus, if it weren’t for Brian’s contract he would’ve gotten the boot, instead of Castro.
IIRC, Castro was sent away at least in part because of a rumored poor relationship with Manuel.
The two guys I recollect reading about being in Manuel’s dog house at various times were the two guys traded away: Castro and Church.
I also don’t know how it could be proven but I recall reading in multiple places last season a widely held perception that Castro is “content with catching 1-2 games a week.”
true, but it’d be a nice platoon. How did Pudge do last year defensively?
Take a look at Castro’s numbers. He is just a fat slob that is content making a little money and not working hard. I am not much for a guy who NEVER wanted to be a starter.
“A corner outfielder or a #2 starting pitcher”
Not or but also a #2 SP, a 1st baseman, at least a catcher (Molina???)… sigh
Where to begin with all the question marks on this team?
Bill, every team has questin marks. And most probably have more than the MEts overall.
when you have the highest payroll in the NL, it is unacceptable to have THAT many question marks.
It is ok for other teams to have them, not the mets stickguy.
Some bad contracts my friend along with the question of
the guys returning from
injury.
Usually,you wouldnt worry too much about guys in their prime returning
from non-career
threatening injuries but with our medical staff and luck, well…you know.
I’m even worried about our healthy 3B not living up to the STAR expectations of most New York met fans and front office.
Yeah,who knows what happened this yr.Made no sense!
Hits for a high AVE,loses all his power BUT Ks more than ever while regressing in the field.
All this b/f the teams injury flood and his.
Again they need to take this retooling slowly.
Which contracts are so bad? Ollie and who? Castillo? $6m at last year’s production is probably better than market value. In fact, fangraph’s valued his performance at $6.8m this season. Even if it is a bad contract, is it the type that prevents them from doing something else?
Those were the main two I was thinking of Wanny.
Fair enough. But one, arguably two bad contracts is hardly to blame for the mess we have now. Especially when neither is a debilitating figure.
castillo is a albatross around our necks
You think his $6m is really preventing the team from doing something else big?
There’s no one in the minor ready to replace him for $400k so they’d have to pay someone else if not him.
Yeah, it’s preventing the team for getting a new 3rd baseman… lol
Hmm., wonder if I can remember my ideas from last night?
anyway, I liked the trade list better than the FA list (and am real curious to see who gets non-tendered, if any).
I vote for spending a little, but not too much, to bring in a vet to go along with Santos. Not sure about pudge. Barajas maybe. I agree that Thole should be given the chance to start at AAA (I think he graduated from AA) to work on his receiving skills.
If the new guy blows, or someone gets hurt, then he will still be there to call up.
Sadly, Schnieder may be one of the best FA options if he takes his market value of ~1mill. But I really don’t want to see him again. ove on please.
Oh, and in this case, go for talent, and forget about handedness. No need to hold out for a LH hitting C.
Don’t know if that was directed to me Bill? My opine is that we need
A #1or2 SP, An impact LF bat(and not
a Dunn type who can’t field),a solid,
veteran BP arm,Righty help for Murph@1B.Those four things are a MUST.
Give us THAT and good health and we’ll
likely contend for a playoff spot.
Agreed. I also agree with all the questions you posted above.
Don’t do that too much!
You’ll get hammered by
the Rose colored glass
wearing bunch who thought Murphy would be
just fine in LF,Church would be a borderline allstar in RF AND if they weren’t,no worries
20 y/o FMart would come up and dominate.
They same group who thought Redding would be a solid #5 and Ollie was still young so he’ll improve.
I’m used to the attacks by the rose colored glass wearing bunch… I’m glad there are at least a very few fans who are not part of that group.
i say try to fleece the pirates for doumitt - he can hit when healthy and I do believe he has a above average arm
This post is on topic… get it out of here!
Doumit would be an interesting trade target as would Kelly Shoppach. At worst, they both have a little pop in their bats.
I do not think doumit is regarded highly as a defensive player.
he was hurt this past year i believe he had a good arm let me look it up - and exxxxcussssseeee me for being on topic lol
Ryan DoumitRoster: Select Player Ascanio, José Bixler, Brian Capps, Matt Cedeño, Ronny Chavez, Jesse Claggett, Anthony Clement, Jeff Cruz, Luis Diaz, Robinzon Doumit, Ryan Duke, Zach Dumatrait, Phil Hacker, Eric Hanrahan, Joel Hart, Kevin Jackson, Steven Jaramillo, Jason Jones, Garrett Karstens, Jeff LaRoche, Andy Maholm, Paul McCutchen, Andrew McCutchen, Daniel Meek, Evan Milledge, Lastings Morton, Charlie Moss, Brandon Ohlendorf, Ross Pearce, Steve Veal, Donnie Vásquez, Virgil Vázquez, Ramón Walker, Neil Young, Delwyn Avg .250 HR 10 RBI 38 Runs 31 SB 4 Ryan Doumit #41 Catcher Pittsburgh Pirates Team Home
NewsTeam ReportBlogsScores & ScheduleStatsRosterDepth ChartTransactionsPhotosHeight: 6-1 Weight: 215
Bats: S Throws: R
Born: Apr 3, 1981 - Moses Lake, WA
College: None
Draft: 1999 - 2nd round by the Pittsburgh Pirates
Player Profile
Split Stats
Situational Stats
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Batter vs. Pitcher
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• Pirates Team Report Oct 27 (Yahoo! Sports)
Catcher Comparisons
AVG HR RBI SB
Doumit .250
League Average .254
League Leader .365
AVG HR RBI SB
Doumit 10
League Average 5
League Leader 28
AVG HR RBI SB
Doumit 38
League Average 22
League Leader 108
AVG HR RBI SB
Doumit 4
League Average 1
League Leader 11
hereare his stats from the last 3 years
Batting
Last 3 years Team G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB K SB CS AVG OBP SLG OPS
2007 PIT 83 252 33 69 19 2 9 32 22 59 1 2 .274 .341 .472 .813
2008 PIT 116 431 71 137 34 0 15 69 23 55 2 2 .318 .357 .501 .858
2009 PIT 75 280 31 70 16 0 10 38 20 49 4 0 .250 .299 .414 .714
Career 410 1343 175 366 91 3 46 191 91 253 9 5 .273 .332 .448 .780
Thanks, Rusty. I’m blind now!
lol sorry man - i didnt know this would all copy lol
I would love it if they could get shoppach cheap. Should be just what they need.
Among the AAA names referenced in the KC blog, JR Towles strikes me as well worth a risk. He’s been successful in the minors, was a highly touted talent and has yet to fail in the big leagues with an extended chance.
Not so sure Houston is ready to give up on him yet.
Mrbill says:
“Not or but also a #2 SP, a 1st baseman, at least a catcher (Molina???)… sigh
Where to begin with all the question marks on this team?”
Fongy says:
“Why exactly would we want someone elses AAA Catcher instead of
Thole,again?”
This is where reading comprehension kicks in. Immediately prior to the “or” I used that so offended Mrbill I wrote “we are all too aware that our favorite team has many holes to fill” but that part is conveniently ignored to cherry pick the “or” that comes afterward.
I also wrote: “Thole, however, is still a work in progress defensively and despite stellar batting numbers in the minor leagues has not even one game of AAA experience. Today is his 23rd birthday and given these facts perhaps a year of AAA seasoning would be best for his long term future.” Why do I need to tell anyone that “again?” It’s already there.
Far too much time that could be used in constructive debate is spent rehashing positions already stated or debating conjunctions, or patting oneself on the back for not running with a perceived pack.
Be careful or Mr. Bill will inundate us with posts about how David Wright can’t hit in the clutch (his 2008 argument) despite his excellent 2009 stats w/RISP (the purported basis of his 2008 argument).
oh noooooooooooooo Wanny don’t attack me please!!!! please!!! JUUUAAAHHH
Reeeeeeelax Gravedigger! It’s surprising to see how sensitive you are today.
You’d understand if you spent any time developing information or thought to incorporate in your posts. It’s rather annoying when you do that and someone like you just talks out of their arse in response.
Hey, I chose to comment to a particular statement on the article (as everybody here does). I have not offended anybody today and you just did “someone like you just talks out of their arse in response”.
You also need to relax…
I don’t know Mr. Bill trying to make a valued commenter like Fongy into a dumb Alex clone is not something we enjoy. It’s OK Mr. Bill, you don’t need Alex to look smart.
hey as per mlbtr
Catcher Miguel Olivo has a $3.3MM mutual option; both Kaegel and Royals GM Dayton Moore believe he’ll test the free agent market. Catchers are also in short supply this year. While Olivo slugged 23 home runs this year, his OBP was just .292.
Don’t forget the Royals’ two primary non-tender candidates: first baseman Mike Jacobs and catcher John Buck. Kaegel says the Royals intend to “re-cast” their catching situation, so Buck is probably destined for free agency. It doesn’t make sense to tender a contract to Jacobs, who earned $3.25MM this year and hit just .228/.297/.401 in 478 plate appearances. Between Jacobs, Buck, and Olivo, the Royals had 1,096 plate appearances of sub-.300 OBP.
all three of these guys are catchers = remember jacobs was converted to firstbase olivo does have pop and i believe can lead a pitching staff - so there might be some better ( and cheaper) options than molina
——————————————————————————–
can anybody explain to me why torrealba would want to play for the Mets after what happened during the hot stove of ‘07?
because they offer him the most money?
Ya gotta love Omar!
3 yrs for Torrealba
who then fails the physical but plays the
next two seasons for the Rox uninjured.
Putz,Ollie and Redding however pass their physicals.
We really are the LA Clippers!
So how exactly is that Omar’s fault? Is he giving the physicals now too?
No he hired those who did.
More to my point though was the fact that,how do you even offer a 3yr deal to a guy like Torrealba to be your starter?
And b/t/w,
I am,have and always will be a HUGE David Wright fan.
Just wondering what the heck happened w/him this yr b/f the beaning?
How about Johnny Damon in LF for the Mets? He’s not young or a big home run hitter. And he throws like a girl.
But he’d produce about what Crawford does offensively (.282 .365 .489 v. .305 .364 .452 in 2009) without costing multiple prospects and might come on a short-term deal.
The reason I’d ultimately say no is the defense (or lack thereof).
Well hes not Crawford thats for sure and my first reaction a few days ago was thanks but no thanks.However, really thinking it over,we could do
worse.What I fear is with all his aches and pains,he finally
breaks down in a big way.
Plus, I think the Yanks bring him back on the cheap BUT again,if we could get him on a 2yr contract,I’d do it.But no
longer than that.
He is the type player I think we need for LF though,Crawford,DeJesus,Damon.
I feel the exact same way. Wouldn’t be my first choice but I’d settle if I had to. He has plusses. I also worry about all of his dings. This was the first year he stopped stealing bases.
But 1-5 of Reyes, Damon, Beltran, Wright and Francoeur or Damon, Castillo, Reyes, Beltran and Wright could be pretty good for another year or two.
Plus, he might kick a few people in the seat when needed.
please no Johnny Damon. Any player that is going to write a book about how great it was when the “idiots” took down the evil empire, then go sell-out and sign with the evil empire is not a person I want on my team. I know it doesn’t mean anything because all players are like this, which pretty much negates my argument, but did I mention he throws like a woman? Can you imagine his awkwardness playing our Citi outfield. Disaster in the making.
The same LF that had Murphy, Sheff, Tatis, Evans, Pagan, Sullivan, Reed, Fmart and Valdez play in it?
I actually think DeJesus is a GREAT idea. I started looking at him the other day. Perhaps a trade built around him and Pagan could work wonders.
That being said, how can you criticize me for asking about a guy like Luke Scott but be in favor of DeJesus?
I like DeJesus because he’s a local. But he’s really the definition of ordinary.
Agreed, I would guess Fongy thinks its because of defense.
What is interesting is on Fangraphs they had him at a 12.8 hitting in 2008 down to 2.9 this year what makes that interesting is last year he was at -1.9 fielding and this year it was at 15.4. So uhm something is going on there.
Hes a plus defender in LF,never gets hurt and from the 20-25 times I’ve seen him the past couple yrs,gives you an honest effort and doesn’t give away ABs.
PLus,he is a local guy AND is fairly cheap.Again,I’d be all for a package which would bring us DeJesus,Meche and maybe Teahan if KC was looking to dump close to 20Mil in salary with these three.I could be wrong BUT dont think it would be very costly to us in terms of our top level prospects.