Big Z
Posted by halfmanhalfamazin on 8:00am, Wednesday November 4th 2009
With the off-season rumor mill already swirling, (our off-season started mid-summer unfortunately), I am disappointed not to hear more about the Mets pursuit of Cubs ace Carlos Zambrano. While it’s true Big Z is coming off a down year, I see him being a perfect fit here in Queens.
After 3 seasons of stellar numbers including ‘06 in which he led the league in wins and was 4th in strikeouts, Zambrano got the contract he was looking for. The Cubs signed him to a 5 year $91.5 mill deal, with a player option for 2012. 2007 and 2008 were solid seasons, but Big Z’s eccentic field antics were growing old and as the Cubs’ playoff runs fell short each year the trade rumors started flying. Last year Zambrano was only 9-7 with a 3.77 ERA while back spasms forced him to the DL for a few weeks. The Cubs fell out of the playoff picture much earlier than expected and Zambrano and his monster contract were an easy scapegoat.
The numbers last year weren’t as bad as they seemed. Zambrano let up 3 earned runs or less in 22 out of his 28 starts while receiving little to no run support. He probably should have had at least 13 or 14 wins. Regardless, Cubs management seem to be through with him now, and this would be a golden time to step in and make an offer. Zambrano’s a gritty pitcher who loves the spotlight. He threw a no hitter in ‘08 down in Houston, something Met fans have never experienced. Yes his antics are a bit odd at times, but as a fan I see it as enthusiasm and desire. So will the Queens Faithful. There weren’t any complaints coming out of Chi-town the first few years when Zambrano and the Cubs were rolling. Instead, the crowd embraced the energy they saw out of Big Z, and with a team and fan base desperate for some new vivacity here in Queens he’d fit perfectly.
Zambrano could be that #2 we are looking for behind Johan. He is the only pitcher in the league under 30 with over 100 wins. He can throw a complete game shutout on any given night. But, how about the way he handles the bat? He’s hit 20 career homeruns and has batted .300 twice! Wouldn’t it be nice to have a pitcher who can hit the ball in the Met’s lineup for once? Can anyone remember the last Mets pitcher who actually posed a threat at the plate? (Mike Hampton doesn’t count). How about the affect it might even have on the #8 hitter who might actually see a pitch or two for a change?
Zambrano’s a head case there’s no doubt about it,but maybe the guy just needs a change in scenery. Is it worth taking on the $18 mill/year? It just might be.
Sphere: Related Content
I think the problem is no one seriously thinks the Cubs will trade him.
“Yes his antics are a bit odd at times, but as a fan I see it as enthusiasm and desire. So will the Queens Faithful. ”
A bit presumptuous, no?
That said, I think it’s at least worth a phone call, but I wouldn’t be willing to part with a Halladay type package considering the injuries and the…zaniness.
I think at this point the Mets fans would welcome anyone who isnt named Pelfrey, Oliver Perez or John Maine.
not every fan has turned their back on pelfrey and/or Maine. I think they will do much better this year then you seem to.
Perez? Well, yo umight be right that it is hard to find any fan still supporting him!
I think a lot of fans (including myself) have lowered their expectations on Pelf and Maine. I really thought that Pelf could develop into a solid #2 behind Johan, but we all saw that he’s not the #2 we were hoping for. Maybe he put too much pressure on himself, but he was shaky and inconsistent throughout the season. Maine I think has the guts, but can’t follow up with his health.
I would trade both of them for another bat/arm/benchwarmer/an actual bat/or a few extra baseballs in a heartbeat. I think with Pelf its more than his mental instability..to me..he doesnt have the stuff. If his sinker is off I dont what else he has. And his sinker isnt that good to begin with. Maine’s got a good tailing fastball…thats about it. We can keep him around as a 4 or 5, but if our expectations are bigger we are wasting our time.
I don’t know if I would trade them for anything other than actual human being, but I get your point. Pelf really needs to be confident in his stuff. I think if he has a good stuff, he can be a decent pitcher. With Maine, I really like his demeanor when he’s on the mound. He’s a type of pitcher that can grind out a decent outing even if he doesn’t have good stuff, but he’s just on DL too many times.
The more I think about it, the more I think we need to stop going after the Big Name. I love that we have Beltran and Johan and KRod, but I think we have enough Big Names now. I don’t even think we should go for Holliday, or Lackey if he costs $18/mil per.
I would definitely go for Halladay, as he is sane, in shape, and better than Zambrano.
Should we consider taking on a guy who is nutty, selfish, out of shape, and has zillions coming to him?
Yes we should, if we never want to rise above the last three years.
We need all of this year’s money to go into a reliable starter, be it Halladay, Lackey at a reasonable rate, Lowe from the Braves if they eat some of his deal, and then we need to fill in the LoDucas, Floyds, and Valentins which we have missed since 2006.
Enough $18 million Big Names.
unfortunately thats what baseball is now…big names. These guys have big names for a reason though. Look whos playing in the World Series right now. We just have to sign the right ones.
Actually, when I look at the WS, I discount the Yanks, as spending what they do is ridiculous and makes how they win irrelevant. How would the Phils or Red Sox have been this year with another $70 mil in payroll?
The Phils have a so-so rotation, a mediocre bullpen, and are in the 6th game of the WS after winning it all last year.
Sure they have Howard and Utley (homegrown draftees), but other than that, they have a bunch of exactly the types we lack.
Lackey has a big name for the same reason Lowe did last year—NOT because they are even close to being as good as a Johan or a Halladay or an Oswalt, but because the corporate media machine needs to create free agent monsters every year, whether they are legitimately great, or just very good like Lackey but with good timing. Gotta drive those ESPN ratings for weeks with the same story every day about the free agent Big Name.
The Phils have also shown the ability to identify(or get lucky)
in picking up players
who have washed out
as prospects with
another team and have
them become quasi-stars
with them while working
cheaply,namely Victorino and Werth.
I can’t think of any time that two such player were acquired
by the Mets during the same period,who cost very little to get and
whos contract also didn’t cost much.
They also didn’t give up on guys who came through there system
slowly even though they
weren’t huge contributors immediately. I’m thinking of Ruiz and Madson.
They’ve also gotten very,very lucky with some of their “gambles”
like trading for Lidge
on the cheap and grabbing Ibanez quickly
off the market.
We all know that should we have reached out for these guys,Lidge would never
have straightened himself out and had the
yr he did last season
AND Ibanez would have
looked alot more like the player he has the second half the second
he walked into the Mets clubhouse.
“They also didn’t give up on guys who came through there system
slowly even though they
weren’t huge contributors immediately.”
The question is whether this is possibly in the NY market. The truth of the matte is that up until about 3 or 4 years ago Philly was mostly a football town and no one really expected much of the Phillies. This afforded them the opportunity to sit and wait on certain guys in a way that the Mets probably just couldn’t do. See Fernando martinez and how already a good chunk of the fan base would be willing to trade him.
This is not a bad idea. I don’t see the Cub’s trading him. Cubs don’t have a legit ace on their staff if he’s traded (unless they consider Dempster an ace). Plus what would it cost to get Z? Since he has a contract signed till 2012, Cubs might be looking for a top prospect.
More than one!
I’m surprised but it does look like AGone may well get traded
by the Pods. I read where the
season ticket packages which
were shipped out had various
player photos on the materials
but no Adrian Gonzalez.
Kinda strange that you wouldn’t feature your best player(by far) on team materials. No?
FMart,Murphy&Niese for Gonzalez?
done! Id hate to part with Niese actually b/c I think he has a big upside, seems like a gamer, but adrian gonzalez is a monster talent and hes right in his prime. He fills a giant hole at 1b and hes a big time homerun hitter. On another note…is he considered a “big name”?
He’s not considered a seriously big name by anyone who has looked up his splits—check out how he did at home…thank he would hit much better at Citi?
We need depth and bench strength and bullpen arms, not another 15–18 million a year guy.
You lost me Brock,who are you talking about?
AGonz…his splits are pretty amazing…check them out.
Or his L/R splits…
He might be a Big Name against righty pitchers on the road…
In response to Kingman’s dismay over AGonz:
I’m just going to OPS to keep things simple.
Versus LH/RH - .770/1.077
Home/Away - .859/1.045
Due $4.75 in 2010, $5.5 in 2011 (club option)
You…wouldn’t want that? At worse he’s a decent hitter vs lefties and at a pitcher’s ballpark, but a complete stud vs righties and on the road. And he’s extremely cheap.
That’s just for 2009 by the way.
2008* (OY)
It was alittle eye opening. BUT remember, Bad lineup and bad team.
This is my argument with Murphy,a rookie in a bad lineup on a team full of AAAA players. AlSO, it may mean nothing BUT San Diego is his hometown so who knows what hes doing before/after games. Agin,may be nothing BUT something to consider.
Not to mention an excellent glove man. He’s a stud and will only get better.
Doesn’t he have a decent defensive skill? He’s way too cheap to be overlooked.
Sure I would want him, but not at the same cost we might get someone like Halladay for.
Trading all of our prospects for AGonz? I would not do that.
I like Z for 3 years over Lackey at 5 (if that is what it will take to get him, as speculated).
But, it always comes down the the prospects you have to trade. Now, if it was a salary dump so nothing significant going back, then it is pretty much the same as a FA signing since they would lose a 2nd round pick there.
Interesting post on Amazing Avenue today (13 moves the Mets GM should consider). Of course, like all of these proposals, it is a mix of unlikely to be doable, and reasonable moves that Omar would never have the intelligence to think of or nads to pull off.
One interesting peice I gut out here, that I agree with: ” Any argument to sign Lackey instead of Harden proves how overrated past durability is with pitchers. Coupling Harden with a good above-replacement contingency plan(s) likely costs less than Lackey, is incredibly more valuable than Lackey, will likely provide more innings than Lackey, and doesn’t carry the huge risk of giving an injury prone pitcher in his 30s a multi-year contract.”
this was in a section where he proposed going with a 1 year deal for Harden (or a 1+1). He also had Maine slotted into the pen, so there is your above average replacement (for any of the Sps that falter or get hurt).
Wow!, People really do fall in love with potential don’t they.
Harden IS ALWAYS hurt,hes never
pitched a big game in his life
AND hes better than Lackey??
Yeah, just what we need!
Return with the same rotaion
except for adding a guy who you
can’t even count on to get out there and who when out there
you have to monitor like
a 3yr old,worrying about pitch
count,rest etc..
Again, I’ll take the guy whos stuff is not quite as good
but who you can pretty much
send out there all the time and
not worry about if his next pitch will be his last of the
season.
agreed…we are on the hook with perez because of “potential”. Lackey has been there done that already and wont cost us a top pick. Both of the pitchers have injury concerns but id take lackey over harden.
I don’t have this clearly, but is our #1 pick protected for next year?
I think everyone would take Lackey over Harden. Question is what kind of contract do the Mets give Lackey? He’s going to demand 5/90. I think everyone is more comfortable with something like 3/52.
Harden will be much shorter contract, but with shorter contract there will be more competition.
“” Any argument to sign Lackey instead of Harden proves how overrated past durability is with pitchers. Coupling Harden with a good above-replacement contingency plan(s) likely costs less than Lackey, is incredibly more valuable than Lackey, will likely provide more innings than Lackey, and doesn’t carry the huge risk of giving an injury prone pitcher in his 30s a multi-year contract.””
This may be the stupidest thing I have ever seen in my life.
Every point is moronic, unprovable drivel. Too much.
There are clearly WAY too many blogs in existence.
True dat!
I’d be happy to take the risk on Harden AFTER we signed Lackey
for a yr IF he was in a
Wolf/Garland type situation and spring was approaching and he
still was on the market. But I’m glad we’re pretty much on the same page with this
off season Brock. I’ll
give Omar plenty of
slack with the re-tooling this winter BUT
no FA signings or trading for oft-injured
players. We cannot go though what we have the past few seasons anymore! I’d rather bring in “B” types
who you can count on than “A” types who you
can’t count on to actually be on the field.
Wait, you mean “oft injured” FAs like a 32 YO SP that has missed 6 weeks each of the last 2 years with arm injuries that are often a precurser to a blown elbow, that expects a 5 year big money deal?
ANd, if you sign a team full of healthy B type players, you will lose a whole lot of games. You have to take some level of risk, since there are very few truly healthy players (certainly ptichers), and like the ad says, past results are no guarantee of future returns!
Stick, we all know by now you don’t want Lackey but to con’t to
just throw out”arm injuries”is somewhat
dishonest.There is a huge diff b/t what
his DL history
is and someone like Hardens.
You also never mention the fact that after
spending a few wks on the DL early in the
season,hes come back to not miss a start and pitch deeply into October.
C’mon man,you’re sharper than that.
he has spent 1/4 of each of the last 2 years on the DL with arm issues.
SOrry if I consider that to be significant, and it is certainly “more than a few weeks”
You can’t make moves purely based on past performance. You might pay FAs based on that, but you get the future.
lackey is fine on a shorter deal (3 years max). Not 5 at huge money.
I am sure you were incensed when Omar didn’t do everything it took and let Lowe go last year, right?
Screw the future, Fongy wants it now.
Harden and Lackey pitched the same number of games the last two years. Lackey pitched 50 more regular season innings + postseason innings over that time and once he returned he never missed another start.
Harden didn’t even pitch well this season. Lackey did.
One of Lackey’s “injuries” was forearm tightness, the type of which Johan says he has every preseason.
Lackey averages 6.66 IP/Start, even during his two purportedly injury years. Harden averages just over 5 in his last two “healthy” seasons (in which he pitched less than 150 innings in each).
I just don’t see what argument supports signing the more injury prone guy, who pitches fewer innings and at less quality.
And after your comment below about hating “innings eaters” I don’t see how you can justify signing Harden by matching him up with a suckpile like Garland or some other stiff.
Nice, either not reading and/or addressing my posts.
And b/t/w Lackey didn’t turn 31 until last week,meaning he pitched this season @30.
Again,if you don’t like him,you don’t like.
Just say that and/or that YOU wouldn’t give him a 5yr deal if thats what it took.I think many of us that want him here wouldn’t be very happy w/a deal that long either.
One thing we need to remember is that a lot of teams will go after Harden IF he’s willing to take 1+1. That means Mets may not be on his #1 choice. Where Mets have advantage is signing guys like Lackey with big money. Only handful of teams will be able to compete. So the Mets have distinct advantage there.
I still think no one factors in the difference in years and cash. Of course Lackey is much more of a sure thing than Harden but he also is the best FA pitcher on a weak market and MAY (for Wanny) get 5/90 while Harden is one of many risky pitchers on the market that MAY not get but 1/9. That cost difference on a team with a lot of holes has to be factored in.
And by putting your eggs in Harden’s basket, we’ll be in the same position after next season — trying to find a legitimate #2 pitcher.
Worse yet, Harden’s track record of unreliability doesn’t even make him a good band-aid solution for 2009 because you’re just as likely to get nothing from him as you are to get something.
So if he pitches his customary 140 IP or less in 2009, then what?
I should say 2010.
a good quote from over on MLBTR about Livan as an innings eater (and why I hate bringing in lousy SPs just because they can throw a lot of pitches, if you let them):
“Over the past two seasons, Hernandez has thrown 363 2/3 innings- and has a 5.74 ERA to show for it.
On the plus side, he eats innings- hit-filled, run-scoring innings.
So would you bring him in? Is the ability to stay healthy valuable enough to make up for his performance?
”
Maybe a team with some very good Sps that just don’t go long in games (harden say, or on the Mets maine/perez (without debating the “very good” part) should go with a different model BP, the anti-jerry.
Instead of having 5 1-batter to 1-inning max specialists, and using at least 5 RPs per game, have a couple of medium-men. Guys that can come in in the 6th say and pitch 3 innings, but not work every day. These would be your depth SP guys, and of course long men and emergency starters.
say they signed harden and wolf (just pretend), and went with johan/harden/wolf/pelfrey/perez as the rotation. But, kept Maine and Neise for the BP.
any game that harden or perez tired after 5, you go to one of those guys to pitch 2-3 innings, saving the rest of the pen for the end game (or just don’t use them, saving wear and tear).
If someone hits the DL, you have your replacement starter already on hand. Even a guy like Nieve can serve the same role.
just seems like a better idea than having 5 guys that are barely competant to pitch to same-handedness batters that jerry insists on playing matchups with.
You are actually starting to see some teams do this more. Even the Yankees.
as a fall back option to Lackey and Halladay, sure. I’d love to see Z throw at the Phils.
I like the idea…but i doubt the cub will part with their only ace.
Agreed!
Dirty I understand why we call Z an ace, and I understand the concept of “why would a team part with one” but I have to say, based solely on 2009, the Cubs 2 worst starting pitchers were Carlos Zambrano and Rich Harden and I find it kind of funny that we’re getting all upset with each other debating which one of the Cubs 2 worst SP would be better for us.
Dempster - 11 W, 9 L, 3.64 ERA, 1.305 WHIP, 2.65 K/BB
Lilly - 12 W, 9 L, 3.10 ERA, 1.056 WHIP, 4.19 K/BB
Wells - 12 W, 10 L, 3.05 ERA, 1.276 WHIP, 2.26 K/BB
Zambrano - 9 W, 7 L, 3.77 ERA, 1.376 WHIP, 1.95 K/BB
Harden - 9 W, 9 L, 4.09 ERA, 1.340 WHIP, 2.55 K/BB
Kinda foolish to base
Zambrano’s career on
just last season on
what was a mess of a team,both on the field
and in the clubhouse…
Which b/t/w,I predicted
and was mocked for by
a couple of folks here.
I’m not basing his entire career on last season.
I was simply talking about last season.
I know you don’t like it when people cut and paste their previous remarks for you so I’ll simply refer you the sentence fragment “based solely on 2009″ which I included in my remark.
Understood BUT whats the point?
Zambrano
isn’t any good anymore b/c he had a bad yr along w/his entire team?
And b/t/w,I dont know what I’ve done to generate all the hate.
Quick Poll:
Do you believe Omar prefers a star LF vs. a star SP?
I think Omar would prefer to
give another contract to
either Julio Franco or
Moises Alou…If he could
convince them to come back.
lol
Yup, this is the kind of insightful, intelligent proposals that make me realize I am not worthy of posting here.
How do you copete with all the fantastic detailed plans that Fongy comes up with? I think it is sign lackey for whatever he wants, right?
Why the hate?
I never said that anywhere at any time.
I’d be more than a little
nervous if any
offers went beyond what
Lowe rec’d last season..which b/t/w,I think was too long for
a pitcher his age.Durable or
not.Thats why as much as I hammer Omar,I didn’t with that
one.
But really Stick,with all due respect,why
argue the point?
You’re not a big Lackey fan
and think Harden
would be a better sign.
Right?…
I’m not gonna argue,whats the
point?
Facts are pretty clear cut. Maybe harden signs somewhere for
2yrs and @28 suddenly stops
getting injured all the time
and becomes a staff ace.Not
completely unlikely but theres a reason
almost everyone in the game
shys away from
smallish frame
pitchers.
I enjoy the humor with a lot of your post but I think Stick was being honest and wanted to know our opinion on the subject and you turned it into your normal I see a chance to stick it to Omar. All of us have our biases guys.
Yeah,BUT It was funny.
Great question Case. I honestly have NO idea. I think he might prefer the biggest name, which would be Holliday.
LF
I think so too. I think LF makes little more sense from the Mets business view.
Big names and HRs are what attracts the crowd.
Winning is what will attract (and certainly keep) the crowds.
He prefers an everything bagel with vegetable cream cheese and a small light and sweet coffee. The guy behind the counter prefers that Omar acquires a big bat. But the guy behind Omar on the line prefers a front end pitcher.
Omar is in quite a pickle on this one.
prob closest to the truth
Well I guess we are screwed if that is who is making the decisions. Game over, website will shutdown tomorrow.
If I had to make a guess I’d say he prefers the star SP. I hope he does.
Since he’s been here, he’s acquired 2 star SPs that come immediately to mind (Petey/Johan). He’s thrown some pretty mediocre corner OFs out there during his whole tenure. Look at who’s been flanking Beltran since he arrived. A star corner OF would be a big surprise.
This is a solid point.
But what about
Moises?!,he was good…sometimes
…when healthy,
..years ago…
when he was young…….
Ah. never mind.
he was good for the Mets when he was healthy. he was just never healthy…
Bingo!
Hey, are you the Redskins offensive coordinator?
The Mets might be better off if he got over a fixation with expensive, aging, past their prime star names, and concentrated on getting guys that had more talent and were still on the upside of their careers.
Of course, this is harder to do than just writting the biggest check for the sexy name.
I believe it’s fair to say that at least two of Omar’s acquisitions were talented guys with some upside, Xavier Nady and Duaner Sanchez.
Unfortunately we know all too well how their fortunes are intertwined.
RE: Lackey, I’d be happy w/ 4 years.
Let me see if I have this correctly. For the top-tier #2 SP option there are; Lackey, Halladay, Harden, Big Z and Lowe/Vazquez.
For the top-tier LF/1B option there are; Holliday, Bay, AGonz, and Pena.
Am I missing anybody?
Lowe/Vasquez??
I am not sure whether you’re questioning if they belong in the “top-tier” group or if you’re questioning their availability.
In case it’s the latter, there have been multiple published reports that the Braves will seek to trade one of Lowe/Vasquez to lower salary given the emergence of multiple younger cheaper in house options.
Thank was it.
Thank you.
Should have read..
That was it.
Mind moving faster
than fingers.
Not sure if thats good or bad?
Many off-color jokes come to mind but in the spirit of Met kinship I’ll just keep them to myself and chuckle quietly.
I think he’s questioning whether they belong in the “top-tier”. I think it can be argued, but Vazquez had a very good year. But also given his track record with the Yanks, he might not be a good fit in NY.
nevermind.
depends on what is top tier.
Here’s a list of projected Type A FA:
Holliday 95.8
C. Lee 91.1
Manny 90.7
Bay 89.7
Abreu 88.2
Damon 85.2
Vlad 81.4
Fielder 90
Berkamn 85
D. Lee 81.4
Gonzalez 80.7
Halladay 97.5
Zambrano 86.3
Lackey 84.3
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2009/10/elias-ranking-projections-update.html
UPDATED: depends on what is top tier.
Here’s a list of projected Type A FA:
Holliday 95.8
C. Lee 91.1
Manny 90.7
Bay 89.7
Abreu 88.2
Damon 85.2
Vlad 81.4
Dye 75.8
Fielder 90
Berkamn 85
D. Lee 81.4
Gonzalez 80.7
Halladay 97.5
Zambrano 86.3
Lackey 84.3
Lowe 79.7
Vazquez 79.4
Wolf 77.9
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2009/10/elias-ranking-projections-update.html
C. Lee <– Carlos or Cliff?
If the Phillies let Cliff Lee go because of his 8.5M option, well…. that’s stupid.
Carlos
the non-FAs are on there for comparison sake?
I think possible trade candidates
possibly Oswalt, but who knows if the Astros will ever actually decide to trade the expensive guys and retool.
I thought about him too, but I think I read somewhere that the Astros owner will not let him go.
Oswalt’s innings have decline successively in each of the last 4 seasons (and his ERAs increased)and he was injured last season. He’s also older than Lackey.
Why trade prospects for him and how is he less risky than Lackey?
didnt say he was less risky or you should trade for him (actually, if I was running the astros, I would be desperate to dump him before he blew up entirely).
Just trying to think of what other big name/front end Sps might be available via trade.
Gotcha. And agree entirely on what the Stros should be doing, i.e. thanking him for a wonderful career in Houston and getting his arse in another uniform before he goes Dave Dravecky on them.
What do you guys think about maybe taking a look at Conor Jackson if Arizona non-tenders him? In 110 PAs last season, he was absolutely terrible…but from 2006-2008 he had an OPS of .822 … His fielding is generally average in LF, but below average at 1B. He’s making practically nothing.
As discussed previously, I love Conor as a line drive hitter in Citifield and a guy who could play two positions reasonably well.
Agreed. And hey, if Cora’s worth $2 million, Conor Jackson’s certainly worth $.5 million (or somewhere around there).
Jackson’s the kind of guy you get on the cheap, and if he pans out it’s a huge + for your team; if he doesn’t, you drop him or trade him and don’t take much of a hit.
Eh, I guess on the market he’d get a million. But still.
I look at Jackson as sort of what Murphy is supposed to become…
His 2008 season (.300 .376 .446) is a good solid sixth hitter type season. His 2007 was about the same (little more power).
He’s certainly another worthwhile player to throw into the 2010 LF/1B mix.
Don’t we have someone like that at 1B?
maybe.
LOL
From ‘06-’08 Conor was much better than Murphy.
And you wouldn’t start BOTH of them.
More like, you’d trade Murphy and other top prospects for AGonz, sign Lackey, and sign Conor to try out for the LF spot.
Reyes
Castillo
Wright
Gonzalez
Beltran
Frenchy
Jackson
Thole/Santos (whoever the catcher is)
And still have some money to spend! Lackey+AGonz+Conor = ~$24mil
Just a thought.
That being said, with Conor’s abysmal year last year, I wouldn’t outright give him the LF job. He’d have to earn it by showing he’s back to his old self. (even though he’s still very young!)
Well, if you have Gonzalez at 1B you can afford to take a chance on Jackson in LF with Pagan and Chris Carter around on the bench.
Hey, true. I forgot about Chris Carter. He has potential too.
Hot stove begins:
Rays trade 2B Iwamura to Pirates
By FRED GOODALL, AP Sports Writer
15 hours, 4 minutes ago
Buzz up! 6 PrintST. PETERSBURG, Fla. (AP)—The budget-conscious Tampa Bay Rays saved some money and added some promising bullpen help Tuesday night when they traded infielder Akinori Iwamura(notes) to the Pittsburgh Pirates for right-hander Jesse Chavez(notes).
The Rays held a $4.85 million option on Iwamura for next season, but did not intend to pick it up because of the depth they have at second base.
“We’ve got areas we really need to try to address,” Rays executive vice president of baseball operations Andrew Friedman said, specifically mentioning the bullpen and catcher as priorities this offseason.
Iwamura hit .290 with one homer and 22 RBIs in 69 games during the final season of a $7.7 million, three-year contract he signed after playing for the Yakalt Swallows in Japan. He signed with the Rays as a free agent in December 2006.
FILE - In this Aug. 18, 2009, …
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The 30-year-old missed 81 games this season after sustaining partial tears of the anterior cruciate ligament and meniscus in his left knee. Once the Rays determined they were not going to pick up his option for 2010, Friedman listened to offers for a trade.
“Pittsburgh has been all over us for about a month,” Friedman said.
Chavez led Pittsburgh and all major league rookies with 73 appearances in 2009, going 1-4 with a 4.01 ERA in 67 1-3 innings. He was taken in the 42nd round in 2002 by Texas, and made his major league debut with the Pirates with 15 appearances in 2008.
The Rays believe the 26-year-old has the potential to develop into an outstanding reliever.
“This year was a good year,” Friedman said. “We feel like he has the tools and ability to have an even better year.”
Iwamura was a five-time All-Star and six-time Gold Glove third baseman in Japan. In three seasons in Tampa Bay, he batted .281 with 14 homers, 104 RBIs and 29 stolen bases while playing third base for one year and second for the past two.
His unselfish transition from third to second base in 2008—a move that opened a position for All-Star Evan Longoria(notes)—was one of the keys to Tampa Bay’s transformation from a perennial last-place team into AL champions.
“It is hard to put into words what Aki has meant to the organization,” Friedman said.
The Pirates badly needed a second baseman after trading NL All-Star Freddy Sanchez(notes) to Giants before the trading deadline.
“He is a good athlete with above-average speed and is a tough out with a solid career on-base percentage,” Pirates general manager Neal Huntington said. “Additionally, he played Gold Glove-caliber third base for years in Japan and has made a smooth transition to second base.”
Pittsburgh takes on Iwamura’s option, which the Pirates can pay because their already low payroll was trimmed when they dealt Sanchez, Adam LaRoche(notes), Jack Wilson(notes), Nate McLouth(notes), Njyer Morgan and Eric Hinske(notes) during the season.
Coming off a major league-record 17th consecutive losing season in which they lost 99 games, the Pirates also needed to make a move to at least appease a dwindling fan base that was angered by yet another season of player departures.
Former Dodgers utilityman Delwyn Young(notes) filled in at second base after Sanchez was traded, but struggled defensively and slumped badly at the plate late in the season. The Pirates’ top second base prospect, Chase d’Arnaud, isn’t close to being ready for the majors.
What a strange trade for the Pirates.
Indeed. When will they learn?
I’d like to ask the writer how the Nyjer Morgan trade saved the Pirates any money, by the way.
How so?
IMO they need a 2B and they didn’t give up much.
Cold have had slappy instead. Oh, when wil they learn?
They are giving up 5 million for a guy not very good. They could easily find someone to give similar or slightly less results for much cheaper. Why spend money that you don’t have on a guy like him when you are not going to compete anyway?
OK, thank you for clarifying. I misunderstood and thought the complaint was more about what they gave up, which IMO was simply 1 of 3 LH situational relievers they have, also something they don’t need when they’re not going to compete.
Also, it brings an end to my sleepless nights wondering whether the Rays will go forward with Zobrist or Iwamura at second.
Iwamura’s going to be about 20% of their payroll. In comparison, that’s about ARod’s % of the Yankees’ payroll.
There don’t know what they’re doin’.
They just got rid of Sanchez,they’re always
rebuilding and the kid pitcher is one of the few whos come through their system w/o getting hurt.
They just go around and around…
Hence the reason for 16
straight losing seasons.
Its a shame,great ballpark.
Oh, a couple more SP trade possibilities from the various rumor mills:
Harang and Arroyo form the Reds.
Neither is cheap, but they are at least 1 year deals (plus 2011 opiotns). So of course, it depends on what you have to give up for them, and how much $$ the Reds eat.
Harang seemed to come back from his injury to be effective (still has good K/BB rates) and Arroyo keeps chugging out the innings (with declining peripherals).
But, if you want a ST guy (say Lackey goes elsewhere), are they better options than a guy like Marquis?
Harang is still more of a power pitcher, in case you are tiring of contact/groundball types.
Might not be the best options, but they are viable ones.
\At least if you can get in a SP for 10m or less, it leaves enough money to sign Holliday if you want him, plus barajas, adjust the bench (will stay cheap) and likely bring in another pen arm (lyon, gonzolez, etc.) and still not blow the budget.
I liked both but don’t want either. Somethings really wrong w/Harang,he was supposed to bounce back but just con’ts to lose velocity and control
on his pitchs. With Arroyo,
solid innings guy and pretty good big game pitcher but
he made some awfully strange comments about how little
he loves the game at this point.
I hear you. I’m not one to suggest that pro ballplayers can’t have outside interests but Arroyo does seem to love being a singer/guitarist an awful lot.
I wonder how much of a distraction that would prove to be for him if he were based in NY.
I also wonder how much a part of his being traded out of Boston had to do with his hobby. I lived in Boston during his time there and I saw Arroyo more often on TV (and in clubs) playing guitar and singing than I did pitching.
Well, if you are worried about distractions, getting a guy on the last year of a contract is the way to go.
Unless he really plans to just retire at the end of the season, it should be the 1 time he stays moti9vated and focused!
Now, getting the same guy on year 1 of a 3 year deal (his last one)? No thanks.
Tribe courting Alomar Jr.
10:54
AM ETCleveland Indians Top Email ESPN The Magazine’s Buster Olney writes in today’s blog that the Indians are working to hire Sandy Alomar, Jr. for their coaching staff.
Buster adds that Alomar, Jr. had installed a catching program for the Mets, and New York wants to keep him.
Paul Hoynes of the Plain Dealer says new manager Manny Acta continues to conduct interviews for his staff and that internal candidates for the pitching coach’s job include Scott Radinsky and Dave Miller.
I’ve always associated Sandy Jr. with Cleveland. If he truly wants to be there I hope the Mets will let him go. I’m not necessarily advocating that he be let go, just that if it’s a dream of his it shouldn’t be denied.
A couple questions: Hasn’t Sandy Jr. been working with the Met catchers prior to now, and are we happy with their performance? I certainly recall lots of complaints about Met C defense the last few years; and Did he overlap here with Acta?
All good questions that I don’t know the answer to.
But I think the Mets catchers have been adequate defensively. The numbers you posted recently suggest that Schneider was underrated by the fans, which is besides the point that at his age and with his experience there is likely very little Alomar could have imparted to him.
I just love the
“Alomars installed a
Catching program” part!
Please,can we stop already with this type of nonsense?
Pena with the
Dominican program,Peterson with the Pitching program
and now the Alomar/Catching
program.
THIS is really part of whats wrong with this
club.
As if all Catchers can be coached up the same way.
Let him go,if he
wants.I don’t see the great loss.
I bet it works out better than the Alomar they gave us.
Just to be clear, I am not in love with Rich Harden (in a plyer-fan way, of course!) He was just a convient example to discuss.
In fact, many of these guys should just be lumped into a bucket at this point of the hot stove, since we are really usually talking about a framework/game plan now (which of course immediately dissolves into petty bickering about a specific player).
- so you got harden, bedard, ??? in the “talented SP but will they be healthy” 1- year w/incentives deal (AKA Theo special).
- The BP set-up/8th inning guys (gonzolez (maybe), lyon, ???) that will cost a couple mill
- OK but not great SPs that are generally reliable (usually your innings eaters, soemtimes questionable innings guys though): Wolf, garland, marquis, etc. Always a question of how long, and are they worth 10mill? And of course, are they better than the cheap guys on hand already?
- the “stud” FAs (holliday, lackey, and Bay gets thrown in here too not that I think he deserves it). In general, due to short supply, they will likely get years/$$s that will probably make a team gag at some pint, and unless you are the yanks, can impact being able to fill other holes
- The 2nd tier FA types that aren’t either as good, or as “sexy” as the stud guys, but can give you above average to very good production, for way less years and $$s (usually). Of course, they often have some ? marks, but hell, every on e on this list does. Probably includes guys like Wolf too here, but also your position guys (lopez, Dye?, etc.)
- Players that are readily available for trades. Just ask! Guys like castillo and Perez could be on this list, along with, of course, the wells and bradleys of the world. This is where awful contracts go to die.
- and of course, the massive pool of good players you could theoreticlaly trade for (probably everyone but Pujols), even though most are in the range of “have to be overwhelmed” to “Pujols” on the scale of not happening.
- Finally, the crap you can’t give away but don’t want.
Anyway, it can be like a chinese menu. You want 1 column A and 3 column D, or 2 Bs and 2 Cs? And for now, it makes sense to figure out what you think the best approach is (for 2010 and beyond). Then, pick out the players that feel best to you.
and obviously, everything posted on this site is personal opinion, and that does not have to be stated in every comment!
I appreciate your patience and effort in outlining various more general categories in an effort to avoid descending into petty bickering.
However, I think each player (like each human being or each snowflake) is different and while it may be a great way to begin a conversation, ultimately it MUST descend into the specifics.
That I think is demonstrated above by the differing thoughts on exactly what constitutes “when healthy”. It’s again demonstrated above by some people considering Conor Jackson and Daniel Murphy to be “the same player” and others considering them to be different.
One person’s opinions on who fits these particular categories may not jive with those of the other people in the discussion.
I think naming names and discussing our opinions on how these specific players do or don’t fit, however heated, is really the only way to go.
Unless we vote in someone to assign every available player into a category and then we all agree to use that as a baseline I, personally (sorry) don’t see how the general approach will work.
if Ike Davis is as good as currently advertised, why do we have any use for murphy? Its not like he’s 21. I would much rather pick up Delgado, trading murhpy and maybe try to get another outfield prospect
I think the opposing viewpoint is we don’t know if Ike Davis is as good as currently advertised, we’re merely hoping so, and that Murphy is a cheap player who still has not reached his “peak years” (which I define as 28-32) and therefore has at least the potential to improve (not guaranteed) so why not hold onto him in case either Davis flops or he (Murphy) progresses.
I am one who believes the Mets need more cheap, under control talent on their 40 man roster (and ideally on their 25 man) so that they can have greater overall flexibility, and I think Murphy and Davis both being in the organization enhance that.
I agree with you about needing more cheaper, controlled talent. Better than a small number of real expensive guys, and the rest being non-talent (valdez) or overpaid.
Also, there is a big difference between production in the majors and stats in the minors. No matter how well a guy hits in AA, until he shows it in the majors, it is all speculation.
So, giving a guy a spot before he has earned it can blow up on you big time.
and yes, I know that everyone has to start someplace, but there is a distinction between annointing a AA guy your starting 1B (while not keeping any legit replacements), and trying him out during the season when needed (DL stint say).
then simplify it. Do you want Omar to blow the budget on 1-2 guys, and bottom feed the dumpster to fill out the rest of the roster, or would you rather try and upgrade in more areas? spend all the money on pitching, offense, or middle of the road it with some of each?
Agreed, it’s not as simple as the ones who like to call people out think it is. This could go either way and both could either be effective or disasterous.
Time to resurect my mantra from last off season (when Omar completely ignored all my advice): Take what the market gives you.
That way, you avoid wildly overpaying for a mediocrity, because you perceive it to be the “only” option.
Omar either saw something in Ollie that others didn’t, or he fell into that trap (since he was the “only” top FA SP left once Lowe signed).
sometimes, you gotta zig when you want to zag, or even make a move you weren’t planning on if a talent falls out of the sky on the cheap (or just on the talented!)
not sure this reading the tea leaves though is Omars strength, or changing course mid stream.
Ahhh…
“The Budget”.
I’ve read several different versions of Vincente Padilla’s shooting accident: a bodyguard accidentally misfired while trying to repar his gun; he shot himself accidentally; it was a hunting accident, and; it occurred at the shooting range.
Given these stories and his reputation, I suspect there’s a heck of a lot more to the story.
Dang I am out of the loop, when did it even happen?
re: STAR V. ROLE players
We need both. Yes we have the stars in the CORE. We also have the ROLE players in French, Murph, Santos, Pelf, etch.
Here’s the dilemna. When you have needs, how do you fill them? Do you bring in the star player or the role player?
Right now, the conventional wisdom is that the Mets need a LFer, #2 SP, and possibly a 1B, C, RP. However, when doing this, we have to look at the budget and what it’ll take to acquire those players (money and prospects).
Can the Mets live w/o a #2 (STAR)? Can the Mets live w/o a STAR LF? What about at 1B?
IMO, for whatever it’s worth, the Mets need a #2 while a LF or 1B is only a want, and the others would just be icing on the cake.
So if I were the guy selling Bagels to Omar, I’d say:
“Yo Omar! You gotta sign Lackey or trade for that Doc guy.” - these guys are musts. W/o a #2 we’ll be hoping Pelf, Maine or Ollie can be that guy and we’ll all be cursing another Yankee v. Philly WS.
Now we have to take care of our wants. We have guys that can potentially play LF and 1B (Pagan, Murphy, Carter) but we WANT to improve over them. There’s a slew of possibilities on the FA or trade market that will give us improvements over our current players and won’t break the bank or cost top prospects.
Finally, w/ C and RP, there’s no need to spend much money or prospects when there’s tons of guys that won’t cost much money on the FA market and when we also have capable guys for these positions from within (Santos, Cancel, Thole, Nieve, Niese, Parnell, etc).
Let’s spend our money and prospects on our NEEDS, not our WANTS. Let’s not sell the top prospects unless we’re getting a game changer for long term cause one of those throw-ins can be ROLE players for the METS, either now or further down the road.
Technically we have pitchers who COULD fill the role of a SP in Maine, Perez, Pelfrey, Niese, and Nieve. We just want to improve on them…
Technically we have pitchers who DO fill the role of a SP. What, in my opinion, we are looking for is a pitcher who is reasonably likely to fill the role of a # 2 SP. Case mentioned “# 2″ multiple times, yet you omitted it in your comment, so I’m not sure if we’re discussing the same thing.
Sure it’s conceivable that at some point one of the gentlemen you mention might fill that role, but all of them have failed to do so so far and I think the concept is to have more (you can’t have complete, I just want more) certainty in filling it, and to do so sooner rather than waiting for it to happen organically in house.
If any one or more of those guys does develop into a viable # 2 after we bring in one, then the rotation is that much better and rivals that of any other team in the league. It seems like win/win to me.
“IMO, for whatever it’s worth, the Mets need a #2 while a LF or 1B is only a want, and the others would just be icing on the cake.”
+10
That is why you are one of the most reasonable people on here.
Without serious improvement in the rotation, anything else means absolutely nothing. Without serious improvement in the rotation, we could very seriously–and with winning 10–15 more games–finish 4th again.
Pedro’s getting spanked so far. Phillies in trouble.
I was hoping Pedro would give up 38 runs in 2/3 of an inning so there would be no chance Omar would consider it.
Well, seeing Pedro lose it definitely would make the horror of the Yanks winning a little less horrific.
why can’t we have a yankee fa period, and just sign lackey holliday and harden and drop 250 mi;?
This is the saddest I have ever been as a baseball fan. Even sadder than Glavine walking off that mound.
Well, at least Pedro got the loss, and at least the Yanks spending over 200 million to buy a title is a joke.
I am trying very hard to take comfort in that.
However, after watching a lot of the Met-less postseason, I am very, very far from optimism about the Mets.
Well I am a huge Pedro fan, so that doesn’t make me happy. I think it would have been so awesome for him to go out beating the yankees to force a game 7
Get ready for 3 more years of Yankees in our face. You’ve been waiting for it to happen, you’ve been waiting for their spending to finally get to the point where it negates team chemistry and other aspects of team developement, but now they have finally crossed the line. The days of parady are slipping.
Yeah, you are SO right….when you spend as outrageously as they do, this was bound to happen. They add CC AND Teixeira AND Burnett?? And now what? Obviously we will see Holliday or Bay on LF in the Bronx next year.
And obviously you are not old enough to remember the 2000 postseason.
I’ve completely blocked it out of my memory, I was in middle school, I would rather have went 0-162 than to repeat that. I still for some reason felt glavine blowing that game was worse. You had your hppes built up, and thats when you realized all the hype, all the future success wasn’t true. I never though for a second in 2000 we were gonn win. I felt in 06 and 07 that we were no brainer WS champions. And in 08 we got to game 7 nlcs without our two best pitchers. Its been tough being a mets and jets fan with a bunch of yankees and giants fans. Thats why I hate when I see people talking about building a team up for 2011.
Yeah, good points man….I guess I also never expected a win in 2000, while I was sure we would win it all in 2006.
And as I speak there is a parade in the street of my campus, which is getting to the point of riot status… so i will not be sleeping tonight
Well, that really sux…..I am a bit older than you, so maybe you can slightly appreciate a contrasting image–I was in college in Vermont in Oct 86 and watched Game 6 of the WS with a roomful of drunken Red Sox fans who were screaming their asses off when the bottom of the 10th started–I still vividly remember the smiling young Roger Clemens getting ready to celebrate before the rally started….and then I watched Game 7 with them all too…and I was up at 7 AM for an early quiz the next day, and went by every newspaper machine on campus to see all of the Boston Globes with “Mets Win Series” on the front page.
Damn, that is a pleasant memory right now!
PHAIL PHILTHIES PHAIL. YESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS. NY BEATS PHILTHY!!!!!
If the Phils had spent over 200 mil this year, think the Yanks would have won one game in the WS??
Stop using the spending argument. The Mets spent a great amount of money too, unfortunately that wound up on the DL. Its not like the Yankees are a roster full of FA’s. Cmon Now.
Ok, then if the Mets can do that, then why can’t we sign lackey and harden, AND Holliday? Because unlike the Yanks we have an actual budget. The yankees can literally get whomever for whatever. You cannot compare us to them! You can’t compare them to anybody. Its a rediculous advantage.
Yeah, facts are no fun.
CC, Burnett, Tex, ARod, Damon, Matsui—no, they are not at all dependent on outspending.
And I know Jeter and Mariano are homegrown. And I know if every team spent the same amount, the Yanks would be as close to this year’s title as the Mets. OK, maybe a bit closer than that, but not much.