A Change in Philosophy: Go Get What You Need
Posted by trs86 on 8:26am, Friday November 20th 2009
Each day I seem to change my mind on what the Mets should do next. Earlier in the year I had the philosophy that next year is the year to go for it. My thoughts were it will be Jerry, Omar and perhaps one or more of the core’s last year with the Mets if they don’t win. However, as thoughts leveled out I was back to “rational”. Thinking OK check on Doc if you can’t get him then offer a fair price for Lackey if he becomes to expensive try and get 2 of the B starters and improve the offense. However, last night I used my politican ability and changed my mind again. What made the change? Thinking about 2 completely different organizations. The Yankees and Marlins.
Today I say screw the safe theory and go get Lackey, Holliday, Molina, Gonzalez, Polanco. Yes that will cost you 50 million and put you right on the luxury tax threshold. That is the Yankee part of this plan. If we win, will any fans of the Mets really complain about the money? Where do the Marlins come in? If the Mets do not win with these players then you start to trade off these players, some during August and some in the off-season. No you most likely could not trade Lackey or Holliday. But you could trade Reyes, Beltran, Frenchy, Molina, Gonzalez, etc. So while you are investing a lot of money into the beginning of 2010 you would not be bound to all of that money in the future.
Again, as always I reserve my right to change my mind tomorrow but for today have fun with it.
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Wow TRS - was this your comment to Marty Noble’s latest post on Mets.com?
“THE BEST WAY TO IMPROVE THIS TEAM IS TO SIGN MATT HOLLIDAY (LF), POLANCO (2B), MOLINA BEN (C), LACKEY (SP) BEDARD WILL BE #2LHP WITH SANTANA (SP) TRY TO TRADE FOR ONE OF THESE PITCHERS A. HARANG , R. HALLIDAY , WILLIS OR IF YOU STRIKE OUT SIGN ONE OF THESE MARQUIS , GARLAND, PINEIRO, AND IF YOU CANNOT TRADE PEREZ YOU CAN WORK HIM OUT THE BULLPIN AND HIM ACHASE TO GET BACK IN THE ROTAION MAYBE THAN YOU CAN TRADE HIM AND FOR BULLPIN DOLTEL , BRADFORD, AND BENCH BRING BACK TATIS , CORA ,AND ADD COUNSELL .AND IN FIRST BASE BRING IN DAVIS FOR SPRING TRIANNING AND SEE WHO WINS THE SPOT BETTWEN DAVIS AND MURPHY. SAVE SOME MONEY FOR NEXT YEAR 2011 FOR THAT GUY COMING OUT OF MINNESOTA YOU KNOW WHO!!!!!!!”
LOL, no because I can’t even read that.
I could swear it was you - such a genius plan. I’ll summarize.
Sign: Holliday, Molina, Lackey, Bedard
Trade for either: Harang, Halliday, or Willis
If trade doesn’t work out, sign one of: Marquis, Garland, Pineiro
Trade Perez or put him in the bullpen until he’s awesome and then trade him for something
Also sign: Dotel, Bradford, Tatis, Cora, and Counsell
Let Davis and Murphy compete to play first base
Next offseason sign: Mauer
Duh TRS, simple baseball here.
LOL, I STILL can’t read it.
“Next offseason sign: Mauer”
I know this is looking too far ahead, but with Mauer being a FA next year, do you think Mets should try to sign a catcher for only 1 year?
IMO Molina will only come to the Mets for 2 year deal. With Thole coming up, do you think that makes sense?
I think Molina would a good addition, but not a must get like Halladay. There are other options at catcher position.
Eh, if Molina (like it or not he’s coming) is here on a two year deal for say 6 million a year that is not to keep them from getting Mauer if they really wanted him.
No way the Mets go after Mauer anyway. We barely have any salary coming off the books next season and as long as he stays healthy this season, Mauer is going to get a HUGE contract.
I guess we would if we did not load up this season or if we traded a big name.
Mauer is a hometown boy, he’s staying put.
Speaking of heading into the 2011 season…it would be VERY interesting to see what the team does if they fail to make the playoffs in 2010. There’s very little money coming off the books after this season, and I wonder how the new GM would handle trying to improve the team.
You can always be a Yankee fan TRS!
Sign Lackey and Holliday and if we don’t win, trade Reyes and Beltran??
Who wrote this piece?
Alex??
JAJAJAJAJAJAJA
jajajajaja
Nope, you know that one of the core will be traded if we don’t win next year as well as the fact that Omar and Jerry will be gone.
Don’t want to be a Yankees fan and I find that insulting. That payroll would keep us under the luxury tax which is what the Comish says is acceptable right?
Oh come on, I was joking and I am sorry if I insulted you.
We are not going to sign Lackey and Holliday and Molina and get Gonzalez and more, and when other folks make silly suggestions like this, you very correctly mow them down.
Personally, I don’t want to win if the only way to do it is by outspending the next highest spender by 50%. That’s a weak, bullsh*t way to win.
Totally with ya Kingman!
This stuff might be ideal for building a winning team, but you know there’s NO way the Mets get both Lackey and Holliday, let alone all those other players.
Agreed!!
Personally, Halladay AND Lackey would be my dream offseason.
Even if those were the only two players we got.
But that’s not going to happen.
I am beginning to think it is VERY possible that the Mets do indeed get 2 big name players. There are so many teams vowing not to spend money this off-season so that could actually play into the Mets getting say Lackey and Bay.
I agree.
Who’s fault it that though? The MLB sets the spending limit for the luxury tax. If we are under that then it’s “fair”.
Never used the word fair.
Just used the words “weak” and “bullsh*t.”
I wonder how Brian Cashman would do as GM of the Twins or A’s or Marlins.
I wonder how Omar or Billy Beane or Theo Epstein or you or I or a 6-year old child would do with a $210 million dollar budget.
Don’t know with Billy, he seems to always waste what little he has on old washed up guys like Giambi. Maybe that is why he is mad at Omar he keeps taking all the old guys.
As for Theo the Redsox have broken the luxury tax the 2nd most times and did it 4 seasons in a row so I would not call them innocent.
I also don’t see how spending up to the luxury tax that is set is weak or bullsh*t. Was it weak and BS when we did it to get Pedro and Beltran? We have approached the luxury tax many times and even came with in 10 million last year. But remember it goes up another 8 million. Thus if we kept payroll the same we would be 18 million from the tax.
I was only saying it would be weak/BS to win by spending like the Yanks did, and getting everyone as you suggest above.
I am perfectly fine with being in the next group of spenders with the Red Sox.
I am perfectly fine with giving Halladay a nutty contract, and even then getting another big deal and being the 2nd highest spending team. I just don’t want to outspend everyone else by a huge amount; to me, that’s not the way to win.
At least the 1996–2000 Yank teams were built around homegrown starts and roleplayers, not around CC, Burnett, Tex, Matsui, Damon, etc., i.e., by just buying the biggest names and bludgeoning everyone else with sacks of money.
But that is my point, IF all of those guys up there could be had for 50 million instead of the 32 million we will most likely spend and we would still be under the luxury tax as usual. Something that the Redsox, Tigers and Angels can’t say as they have all broken it at one point or another.
Kingman I am not actually offended. That was said tongue in cheek because of our debate last night. LOL.
Gotcha!
So you are against ownership investing their resources back into the team to give their fan base a premium product while keeping the resources flowing because they put a winning product on the field. But if the Mets ever decide to aggressively embrace this philosophy not to worry since there will always be plenty of teams where ownership is more than happy to invest the profits back into their own Swiss bank accounts. These teams will always be there for your rooting interest.
Besides if it had been Alex he would have said make Reyes the team president and trade Wright for a poster of Arod.
Now THAT’s funny!!
Only if it’s the one of Arod kissing himself in the mirror.
That poster may have netted Wright AND Reyes….
Hysterical. And probably true.
Heyman twitter predictions: Holliday $120mm, Lackey $90mm, Bay $85mm, Figgins $45
Anyone else think he’s going way over what these guys will get?
Hmmm, yes and no. Really depends on WHO gets involved. Say the Yankees get uh Lackey. Then to me Holliday’s price goes down because it will be in my mind just Mets and Cards and the Cards are not going that high. Say Redsox sign Bay and Lackey resigns with Angels and the Mets are both in the running for Holliday then yes he could get that 120. All depends on who strikes first.
In reality it is just as Kingman says. The Yankees are holding everyone hostage with what they do and will dictate the market as usual.
He says they’ll get $340 total, I’d go with $260. HUGE difference. (it’ll probably end up at $300)
Hmmm, let me take a stab again. I think I did it earlier on our contest but…
Lackey 4/70 with a 5th year mutual option.
Holliday 6/108
Bay 4/68
Figgins 4/36
That’s 282 for me so yeah right now I would also say he is way over. Again it really depends on who is in it. Say Doc is trade to the Dodgers, Holliday is signed by the Yankees and the Mets are left feeling desperate for Lackey then he could get that 5/90 deal that I am so terrified of.
Freaking heck these players make a lot of money. I don’t even know what I’d do with a $150,000 a year salary, let alone $15-20 million!
I know I would be pretty damn ecstatic with a 150 G a year salary, and I could find things to do with it!!
I’m fairly certain that you will be changing your mind again shortly, cause you know that ain’t gonna happen.
But, I do think you raise an interesting point when mentioning the Yankees and the Marlins. The Mets, as an organization, seem to struggle with their identity. Obviously they spend a lot of money and can’t be compared to the Marlins and other small market teams, but at the same time, they don’t seem to want to play in the same league as the Yankees.
I hate the Yankees with every fiber of my being, but I’ve never criticized them for spending, just as I don’t criticize the Wilpons for being cheap. That said, just once i would like to see them really loosen the purse strings and get Yankeeitis.
I completely agree. Why not be a little of both? Why not go for it this year, KEEP your prospects and deal with trading off some players next year if they don’t win?
It’s good that you don’t criticize the Wilpons for being cheap, as that would be absolutely ridiculous and completely unreasonable.
The Mets spend as much or more than every single team in baseball except the Yankees. They play in the same league as every other team except for the Yankees.
I think the “identity” thing is largely in the minds of a certain type of fan.
I have been a Met fan since 1973 when I was 7, I love the team, I love the history, and not for one second of my life have I felt like a fan of a loser, identity-less organization. I just don’t get that mentality.
Not saying we have a loser mentality. I am thinking more along the lines of that the front office does not seem to have a plan and has not for years. They don’t really know what kind of team they want to be or if they do, they don’t follow that plan.
Yankees are going to be the Yankees and outspend everyone.
Marlins are going to be the team that develops stars and trades them for more players to develop.
Phillies are going to win it with hitting and built a ballpark around that fact.
Braves are going to win it with pitching and have built a staff to suggest that.
What can you say the Mets are GOING to do? I have no frigging clue.
Actually I guess you can tell what they will do. Get the ONE biggest name out there and then try and adjust the team around that regardless of their needs.
I’d say the Mets are going to win it with speed and have built a ballpark and staff around that.
But have they built a team to support that? Can you win with JUST speed? Is it speed and defense? If so then our defense was horrible as was our pitching.
I think they’re trying to move Castillo. That should improve it.
Not bringing back Delgado would help too.
They built the park, now they have to adjust the team.
I am not sure how much not bringing back Delgado improves it UNLESS they get a real 1B. 1B is not all about UZR as Tex shows. Tex’s UZR was terrible but he makes his IF so much better because he knows how to play 1B. The scoops, stretches, positioning…
I really think the reason Wright’s defensive stats were so bad was because Tatis, Murphy and Reed were our 1B.
posssibly, but you got to admit, Murph was all over 1B, saving quite a few runs. Yeah, he didn’t pick up some balls in the dirt. How much of a difference that makes, IDK.
Still though, you asked what’s the team’s plan and I told you it was speed and defense. Am I wrong?
Honestly Brock, six months ago I would have agreed totally with you. No doubt. But this year really did a number on me. Now, that doesn’t mean I think we have a “losers mentality”, but I do think it requires taking a long hard look at yourself in the mirror.
This orginization cannot continue to exist as it has over the past 23 years since it last won a WS. It just can’t.
The diehards, like the people on this board who bother to comment on the Mets on November 20, will always be there. But the Wilpons cannot expect the fans to continually support this team year after year while they have to watch the Yankees and their fans celebrate another WS championship.
What is our identity btw?
Good points, and watching the Phils and Yanks win the last two years has been pretty brutal. Yes, I rooted for the Phils in the WS, primarily because they were playing the Yanks. I sure was rooting VERY hard for the Rays in 2008. Damn, I should have mentioned that a few times when I was getting constantly pilloried around here for rooting for the Phils against the Yanks!
You are totally right about the non die-hards fading away if 2010 is anything like 2009.
As for our identity, I guess we will always be the baseball little brother in NY, as the Dodgers were before us.
I guess our identity is the perpetually younger NY team, a team that has indeed had a pretty colorful history, and every once in a while climbs up to take over NY as we did in the 1969-73 and 1984-89 eras. And as I think many of us thought would happen again starting in 2006.
The Mets–as did the Dodgers–represent a more scrappy, working-class, everyman kind of organization, ridiculous as that may be with our payroll. I think the Met team and fan identity has always been more of a cross-cultural melting pot, on and off the field, rather than the US Steel, Babe-Gehrig-Joe D-Mantle-Reggie cavalcade of riches and stars of the Yanks.
And I still maintain that while we have just two titles in the last 40 years, they are most definitely among the most memorable and remembered title teams of the last 40 years.
And I had absolutely zero say in being a Met fan. My Dad was a Dodger fan and became a Met fan, and I was one by age 7.
I do agree wholeheartedly that whatever we do this offseason, if we do not at the very least make the postseason next year, Omar, Jerry, and one of the core probably go, at least.
Your points are really good.
I agree with your idea of who the Mets were but are they that now?
“represent a more scrappy, working-class, everyman kind of organization”
Is that what they are trying to be? I have no clue what they are trying to be.
I too was rooting for the Phils. All that lesser of two evils nonsense.
Anyway, my dad was also a die hard Brooklyn Dodger fan and that man hates the Yankees more than anyone I’ve ever met, so I hear you on not having a choice.
The thing is, the Dodgers were pretty crappy for the better part of their initial existence, and yes they ultimately won only one WS, but throughout the late forties and fifties, they won a bunch of pennants and played in a lot of WS.
Its sad that as a Met fan, I would envy having won only one WS, but at least they got their a lot.
I don’t know. I’m just more frustrated with this orginization right now then I have ever been in my life.
Your Dad should meet my Dad–there is nothing on Earth he hates as much as the Yankees.
I am very frustrated too.
But the Mets are still always a positive thing to me.
And my Dad is right up there with them.
In 1960, at a neighbor’s house down the street who happened to be a Yankee fan, in the middle of the night after that WS game 7, he put up a skull and crossbone type cross with NY Yankees on it and burned it on his front lawn.
To say he hates the Yankees, would be an understatement….
I kind of agree, except that even this year we weren’t in a position to be sellers until after the trade deadline. See, with the Mets, there’s always a chance.
That’s fine. A lot of those players could still be moved after the deadline in August too.
but then ur not rebuilding like the Marlins and ur subject to another team claiming your player. Though, I guess the could go the Player to be Named Later route.
There we go TR…come to the dark side. Totally off topic, but anyone else see that article earlier about the new uniforms? Lets hope we get the blue caps on the road finally! If so, we definitely need to bring Delgado back.
1. Lackey 16
2. Cameron/LaRoche 8
3. Wolf 6
4. Polanco 4 from Castillo*
5. Barajas 2 from Castillo*
6. Oliver 4
Total 34M
*I’m still trying to figure out who would take Castillo
Wolf should cost more like 9 and maybe on a 2 year deal. Lackey very well could cost more than 16. I think that is right for Cameron/LaRoche, Barajas. We can’t sign Oliver for 4 million and give up a high draft pick for him. He is too old to be doing that for.
I still don’t see any team giving us prospects for Castillo. If we trade him we are either eating at least say 4-6 million or taking on another bad contract.
I think that’s a bit much for Wolf, who knows with Yankees interested in Lackey, I’m not worried about the pen, but if Feliciano goes down, we’re screwed, so I’d rather have some protection. Maybe Roy Merritt will get an invite to ST (I have no idea what his splits are). With Castillo, I hope Omar gets creative but not desperate.
I find it interesting that so many are now saying lets just trade Castillo because he had a good season. Why do we want to trade him? Ah because he was the worst fielding 2B in baseball last year. Shhhhh Oh wait I was not supposed to say that out loud, I hope the other teams don’t know about UZR and did not hear me say that. Damn, my fault guys.
No one will want to pay him 2/12 and trade any prospects for him when they can just get Hudson, Lopez, Polanco for cheaper.
Why should they care about UZR?
“However UZR, like EVERY defensive rating I have ever found, it is very flawed.”
They have their own eyes and scouts. They don’t need stats.
No they will not get Lopez for Cheaper than 2/12. If he drops that low, the Mets should get him. Hudson, yeah he could go for 4-6M. Polanco, too.
Still, unless there’s only 3 teams looking for a 2B, gotta figure someone else can use Castillo. If what you presume is right, that there are more 2B than interested teams, then we could use one as a backup MI. Would Hudson or Polanco at $4M be too much to back up a slow Castillo and returning from surgery Reyes?
In the end though, it may take acquiring someone’s salary in return (Overbay, plz).
ha. that’s great.
I think there’s a market for Castillo even with Hudson, Lopez and Polanco available.
He’s got a different set of skills than the rest of them. He’s a reliable top of the order OBP guy who can still run the bases. None of those other guys have done that with consistency.
Teams may not want him as a 2B as much as they might want to take a chance on him as a leadoff or second hitter.
At 2/12 I just don’t see any team giving us prospects. I still think we would have to chip in cash or take on another salary. If I am wrong then why the hell haven’t we done it yet? We would think he was put on waivers last year and no one claimed him.
that’s a very valid point. Heck, if I had assurances that Castillo could regain some of his range, I’d want to keep him. But as I’ve said, defense first.
If that is the case, then why wouldn’t the Mets? Don’t you think that sends a clear message to other teams that although we don’t have a 2B to replace him we would like to trade Castillo and sign one of the other guys on the market.
Because the Mets, like Casestreet, might prefer better defense at the position. Another team might be willing to forego defense for his OBP skills.
And I don’t think I ever wrote that the Mets would receive some kind of windfall in prospects for Castillo. My suggestion is that another team might be willing to take him. That’s it.
Perhaps it hasn’t happened yet because Omar is going to try to obtain value for him before dumping him for non-prospects.
Wouldn’t you want to exhaust opportunities first? And maybe the market will get better for Castillo once DeRosa and Polanco, etc. sign elsewhere.
Perhaps but then once they sign, who do we get?
Not saying you said we would get a good prospect. I am maintaining that we won’t get ANY cheap players.
Let’s say the Athletics need a leadoff hitter (just a hypothetical example). They might want to acquire Luis Castillo with the Mets paying $2m of his bill.
The Mets then sign Polanco.
Polanco would not have fit the A’s need for a leadoff hitter.
So then what I said would be true basically.
At 2/12 I just don’t see any team giving us prospects. I still think we would have to chip in cash or take on another salary.
I think it would have to be at least 4 million but that is besides the point.
never underestimate the stupidty of some GMs. Every year, there are head scratching deals made and idiotic contracts handed out.
after all, Castillo was signed for this deal, right?
and last year, many people thought Heilmann was untradeable.
problem is, fans (especially rabid ones like frequent this site) are biased. We see every flaw, even some that aren’t there.
GMs are much more objective. They don’t come with the emotional baggage fans do with certain players. It is more about numbers and needs with them.
and bottom line, player evaluation is largely subjective. Even all the sabermetric stats in the world are just more data items to consider.
True about the last line but as for your point on why he was signed his defense was not that bad at that point.
Just because the team opens the wallet there is a very real possibility that these players dont want to deal with this BS Mets drama. After what has transpired in the last 3 years, as a player I would look toward other avenues.
This is the second time in one decade where the organization put themselves into a horrible position. Last time it took a bunch of money thrown at Pedro and Beltran to get the perception overhauled and ultimately did not worked. Why would it work now?
I think we are overrating this “BS Mets Drama”. If we pay the cash they will come and we will not have to significantly overbid to do it, just be the top bid.
You think? 2 late season collapses and last years fiasco is kind of dramatic. Then you have to take into consideration the media scrutiny. It also seems pretty obvious that if the team doesn’t perform the GM and MGR are gone.
So as a player wanting a multi-year deal, I don’t know if I would sign with these questions looming.
players don’t care about the GM. Heck, they probably dont care much about the manager either.
and 2007 and 2008 are ancient histroy.
follow the money dude, the money. As long as the checks clear, all is well.
plus, did you ever think that players tend to have giant egos? So maybe, instead of saying a team choked so I dont want to go there, maybe they think wow, tons of talent, and I am the stud to put them into the WS?
Money is money.
players follow the money. Plus, the Mets still play in NY, and there are some players who consider that a plus (endorsements, family reasons, “the big stage”, etc.)
plus they know the payroll will be up thee, and they do have the talent base to win.
The BS is probably overrated anyway (more for the fans?).
A better question might be, why would any player want to go to pittsburgh? KC? Wash?
Going to Pitt, KC or DC is a whole different story. Thats the land of the lost at this point.
Just as many players want the big stage there are plenty that don’t. And if your talking about a difference of 5 million out of a 80million contract well Seattle and St. Louis and a nice markets too.
that’s a joke right?
How did it now work. That bunch of money put made the Mets a winning team from 05 to last year. There wasn’t another team who was in first for so long.
Yeah, what player would want to be in playoff contention in NY and making tons of money.
What does injuries have to do with BS Mets drama?
+ 5
man, I really need to proofread my comments before I submit them.
Feeling a little lonely over here today
As a Mets fan have you really been content with the teams outcome from ‘05-’09. ‘05 they started 0-5 and never got out of that hole. ‘06 is the only year that was good in that span but when the kitchen got hot in the playoffs they team couldn’t handle the fire. The last three years have been a disaster.
The ‘01 - ‘04 era was even worse. They stand pat in ‘01 thinking they could repeat then freak out since it didn’t work and trade and sign everyone possible but flop. More changes were made in the front office and at manager and now the team is facing ‘05 all over again.
I am just too skeptical about all these injuries and it can’t be coincidence. As a fan are you at all confident that the whole gang will be back and better than ever? There are too many question marks and too many issues and I just don’t believe money is going to fix anything. If the team puts itself in a inflexible position by spending like crazy and the returning players continue to have issues, the team will be put in a position of wilting because there is no more wiggle room left.
And back to my regular comment. It is my own opinion if I can make around the same amount of money in St Louis, Boston, Texas or the Mets, I would not choose the Mets based on current history. More than everything I hope I am wrong, and more than anything I hope the team can rebound I just dont see much light at the end of the tunnel and wish the team would address the issues through better scouting and player development.
TRS is starting to have more internal conflicts in philosophy than even Matt Cerrone.
lol
Not at all. Why should I not be able to change my mind based on the great information that is supplied here?
So teams rights to sign up team players that became FA ends tonight at midnight, correct?
If yes, we should see some moves heating up by next week.
I believe that happened at 12:01am this morning, and players are free to sign as we speak.
While the philosophy proposed in this post just somehow doesn’t strike me as likely to happen, it IS the philosophy I can most easily imagine Omar undertaking, since it incorporates only things he’s proven to be quite good at, acquiring big name talent.
All other suggested philosophies this off season require Omar to stray from his previous mode of operation more than this one does.
While I agree, Omar each season still does not finish the plan either by getting another big name or by getting the role players.
Understood and agreed.
More specifically I feel your plan here today is easiest to project on Omar than any other plans any of us have come up with is because here we are just asking Omar to do what he has done before, only more of it in a smaller window of opportunity.
It’s not like this plan asks him to identify mid level talent (supplemental talent?) or asks him to make a bold mid-season acquisition. It just asks him to “sign Beltran, trade for Santana, sign Pedro and so on” all at once instead of spread out over multiple seasons.
It’s “Hey Omar, you know that stuff you’ve done most every off season since 2005? Do it again, now, all at once!”