Tuesday Mini-Opinion at Kingman’s Korner: Where We Stand on December 15
Posted by Kingman 26 on 9:10am, Tuesday December 15th 2009
Time for a real quick step back off of the ledge. Let’s take a look at the words of Brian Costa, the even-handed and fair Star Ledger Mets beat reporter.
This morning Mr. Costa suggests that the Mets’ plan all along has been to go after Jason Bay, Bengie Molina, and a second-tier starter. Let us also remember what some of us debated long ago: John Lackey is a very good - but not great - pitcher, who has had arm trouble the last two years.
As of this writing, all of the above players are still available, as is Matt Holliday, whose price is coming down by the day as more teams turn elsewhere. Who is left for Bay and Holliday? The Yanks, the Cards, and us?
In any event, it is December 15th. We are not getting Halladay or Lackey, but we very well might still obtain serious improvements.
Here is a large excerpt from Costa’s piece, and the serious, reasonable, educated fan would do well to read it and give it serious consideration.
Once Bay and Holliday and Molina and Pineiro and Sheets and Bedard and Meche are all gone, then it might be time to head back to the ledge. But it is way too early to give up on our favorite big game hunter, Omar Minaya.
——————————————————————-
“The Mets left the winter meetings with a plan, or at least a Plan A.
After three days of discussions with agents and other teams, the Mets decided to try to sign Jason Bay to play left field and sign Bengie Molina to be their starting catcher, then sign a mid-level starting pitcher (barring any unforeseen developments on the trade market).
And for all the despair caused by Monday’s flurry of activity — with John Lackey on the verge of going to the Red Sox and Roy Halladay apparently headed to Philadelphia — the Mets can still do precisely what they set out to do when they left Indianapolis.
Now, you can debate whether that was the right course of action to take. You can argue that they should have pursued Lackey all along, rather than making an offer to Bay. But Monday’s moves didn’t derail what the Mets are trying to do this week.
Where it hurts the Mets most is from a PR standpoint. There is not a general manager in baseball who woke up Tuesday with more pressure to make a major move than Omar Minaya. If that results in the Mets overpaying for Bay, in years and/or dollars — if they give him a better deal than they were willing to give him 24 hours ago — Monday will have proven costly in that sense. And if the Mets somehow fail to sign Bay, then they’ll really be in a tough spot (Matt Holliday or bust? Scott Boras would love it).”
Sphere: Related Content
http://www.nj.com/mets/index.ssf/2009/12/why_mondays_deals_might_not_be.html
(and that’s the link, for anyone who missed it in the other thread)
Thanks Prismo.
Now that LAckey’s signed with The Sox,you’re with the “arm trouble”
nay-says too Brock???Disapointing!
I kinda think The Redsox have shown they know what they’re doin’.
They now have the best rotation,w/o
question in baseball. Good for them,
beat those damn yankees!!
On to the Halliday-Lee deal.If as
reported The Phils also gave up Taylor and Drabek, I think the deal
is a Net-Negative for them. I state
this from having seen both live and in person this past season. Drabek
looks to be at least a solid 2/3 Starter in another yr or two and
Taylor has all the physical tools.
Looks like a Righty D-Straw. May need
another yr in the minors but he should be real good. No doubt Halliday is better than Lee…BUT…
not by much,so again it seems for
the assurance that they’d be able to
keep Doc long term,they gave up plenty. The deal should also end any false rumors Victorino was/is on
the block. As for us, we still wait!
I think Omar should make sure Bay doesn’t get away and unlike my friend
Kingman,I’d Investigate Piniero, I
think hes regained his form of several yrs ago after arm problems
and with orw/o Dave Duncan, I think
he’ll be a pretty solid #3. I also
think Omar should go hard after some
of these non-tenders. Capps tp me makes all the sense in the world.
And for all those who always want
to gamble with the lame, Arrendondo
from The Angels seems to me to be
one we’d want to roll the dice with.
Young, nasty stuff and has already had success. Kelly Johnson would be
nice but I don’t see a fit (glad that
Castillo contract hasn’t gotten in the way as I predicted). Wake up, Omar…Its gettin’ late early!!
Fong–Only suggesting that perhaps the arm issues were what made the Mets unwilling to go nuts for Lackey….
Good point Kingman. What we are forgetting is that the Mets most likely would have to top Boston’s offer. So what does that mean? Does that mean 5/95 or does that mean 6/108? 6 years for Lackey would have been in my opinion a very bad move.
I believe at this point there will be no Bay or Holiday for los mets. There’s no way the mets offer Holiday more than 6 years and they shouldn’t,and there’s no way they get into a bidding war for Bay. The Ms seem the logical choice for Bay.Now that the yankees are involved in Bay that will gaurentee no Bay to the mets.When you sit back and look at these deals maybe its a good thing they won’t be signing these players to these obserd contracts.
What is the point of the Los Mets crap again?
Wasn’t going to go there, but this is a great example of the things that annoy the hell out of me. I am white, but Omar DOES NOT only target Latinos, and it is moronic to say or think he does.
Last year: Sheffield, JJ Putz, Reed, Green, Takahashi, Broadway, Brown, Sullivan, Francoeur, Redding, Misch, Fossum, O’Day.
Steve can’t spell, but maybe he can discern that none of these players is Latino?
Thing is this crap is just expected and because of that Steveo here might not have even been implying that but because of media perception just goes with the flow.
The o in my name is for ortiz this is no latino bias here bud sorry you thought is was bieng offensive.While I do sometimes give in to the Omar latino bias no offence was meant here.
Well then I sincerely apologize, and I also apologize for the spelling comment.
My bad, and I really am sorry.
But Steve, Omar really signs plenty of non-Latinos; it is true. As you must know, there are TONS of Latino players who are good-to-great, and have been in MLB for decades.
that if bay/holiday/lackey were 1/4 latino, omar would have jumped on them like flies on s***
Right. LOL.
I dont think the Yanks are really serious about bay…they are kicking the tires though if bay can be had for a reasonable price. Why do the M’s seem the logical choice but not the Mets?
I think because it’s it’s closer to his home and where he went to college?
Seattle is an absolutely amazing city to live in in all ways except the rain from Nov–April; even that is compensated for by incredible humidity-free summers, and almost no snow….amazing natural beauty with mountains and water everywhere, very liveable, great neighborhoods, safe, still somewhat affordable–it has everything….
Most players–except ARod–love it there.
hahaha…are you a travel agent during the day king ;p
LOL–good idea–I love to travel!
I lived there from 1989–2001 and LOVED it.
Great, great place.
1st they are an AL team who could offer him 5 years and not worry about his defense since he could dh for them in the 4th and 5th years . 2nd his wife is from there and is rumored to have some close ties and a fondness to the area.
I think costa is totally right on this one. I think strictly because of PR, Omar just got hit with 1000 pounds of pressure with what happened yesterday. The Mets are admittedly worried about ticket sales next year and their strategy of waiting the market out is not mixing well with fans. I agree that im sure the fans will buy tickets for the finished product but all thats available is 2 LF, a bunch of #3 starters and a delusional catcher that wants a 3 year deal at age 35. Omar is going to have to be pretty creative to get us where we need to be in order to compete next year with the east. While they may not have gotten better with the offseason(phillies withstanding), im a proponent that pitching wins ballgames and right now the braves/marlins/phillies have a better rotation. Unfortunately we need offense,pitching and DEFENSE this year and omars choices are limited as he is trying to resist gutting our improving farm system. Time will tell, its only December and we got months to go still but I just hope Omar doesnt do something stupid for the sake of doing something
So by taking Halladay and Lackey off the market the only things left are “2 LF, a bunch of #3 starters and a delusional catcher that wants a 3 year deal at age 35″ That is what you call a terrible FA class.
and next years is potentially very strong so wouldn’t it make more sense to be creative and take advantage of these non-tenders and the trade market instead of making another Ollie signing???
i mean how can they sign Webb or Lee if they have no “budget” b/c Omar has Joel Piniero, Ollie Perez and Luis Castillo making 25 million total…
i think i just threw up a little…
Agreed, but Castillo at that point should be able to be released. It will only be 1/6 and actually Perez’s will be down to a year left too. So at least they are not long-term contracts.
I agree I would pursue the trade front first and then just wait around for this year’s Garland. Which ironically may be uh… Garland.
Jon Heyman on the fan just made a prediction for the Mets:
He says they’ll sign Bay, Molina, Delgado, and Garland or Doug Davis
That would be a disaster Prismo, even worse if it is Davis and not Garland.
I don’t envy any ticket holder
who’d have to sit through back
to back Perez and Davis games.
Bring your camping gear, those
would be some long nights!!!
I think there is some truth there. I expect Bay to be on the Mets with them going 5/75. I expect them to sign Molina and I think there is a good chance we get Delgado. I however, also think Omar will sign one of those B starters AND trade for a mid-rotation pitcher like Duke. Free plug….
My annoyance/fear with the whole situation is not the Mets taking their time to get who they want, a la Johan. It is that as players fill holes on other teams, and fewer options exist for those players yet to be signed, it creates 2 types of opportunities, good and bad. The good opportunity for the Mets to jump in there and sign a decent player at/below market value rather than over market value. The bad opportunity is that of the rich teams (read: yankees) can use their financial clout to “steal” a player. Assuming that Holiday signs with the Cards, that leaves Bay to the Mets. I don’t see why they wouldn’t shell out the 5 year 75 mil plan for Bay when they are mulling bring back Damon. So, while wanting to be smart fiscally and sign players responsibly, my fear is that if they do not act sooner than later, their only option may be trade or signing a Damon type. *shudders*
If for some reason the Yankee’s bid 5/75 (I don’t see it) then there is no reason for the Mets to get Damon long-term. I am sure they would then pursue trade options before they would sign any of the others long-term.
Hallady got 3/60 mil extension from the phills with 2 vesting options
Yup and his current year.
So at this point, assuming Halladay stays healthy and pitches enough innings (can’t base it on performance) then the deal could turn into 6/115.
Will also have to see how much those vesting years are for. Could be more than the 20 million.
Im interested in the prospects involved. I hear drabek is involved
So…do I have this straight?
Phils gave up prospects for 1/2 year of Lee. Made the WS with that staff but pitching was still their downfall and fell short.
Now they trade Lee, trade for Halladay, give up more prospects, get 6Mil or so back, but sign Halladay to a 3 yr extension worth about 20Mil. Also received some prospects that don’t appear equal to those they gave up between the two trades.
Essentially gave up one very good pitcher for one probably a bit better for big $$, but if I’m not mistaken, unproven in post season?
The difference in Lee and Halladay as starters will be a handful of games, but IMO, the real value with Halladay and his near CG and CG stats, takes that awful BP out of the equation - unless Phils improve that area as well.
Then again, welcome to the NL and no designated hitter. Could impact those complete game stats….
here is the best place so far for the breakdown
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=4742072
Interesting.
Gamble on long term Halladay health in declining years and prospects traded around, all the way around.
As with most, this could go either way.
Here was my response earlier.
But still I think most rational fans would agree that even Halladay can’t pitch much better than this: 7-4 3.39 ERA 1.13 WHIP and almost 7 innings per start down the strech. Not to mention this: 4-0 1.56 ERA 40 innings 8 innings per start, and a WHIP of 0.818. If Halladay pitches better than those playoff numbers then they should rename the CY-Young.
If Halladay lays an egg in one of his first playoff starts, what % of Phils fans will all of a sudden claim Lee is the superior pitcher?
A future source of laughter, maybe.
True, one can not doubt how Lee performed in the playoffs. It would be interesting to see the Mets pickup and sign Lee long-term after all of this is over. Most likely he works out an extension with the M’s though.
And I like the Duke post. I think both he & Maholm could become excellent starters when they find themselves surrounded by a serious lineup. They’re both young.
It’ll probably be cheaper for the Mets to take a big contract off a small market team, though, than land one of Pitt’s young starters. (Still, it’s been real quiet on the Reds/Royals front . . .)
Exactly what I thought last night.
Would be sweet if Lee becomes a FA next winter and ends up with us.
But you’re right I think The M’s give hima fat Omar-like contract to prevent him from ever hitting the market.
The M’s will be cautious because a long-term reign for King Felix is a higher priority.
An Omar like contract? Like the ones given to Burnett, Lowe, Lackey and now Halladay?
I wasn’t aware Omar was the only one spending money.
The Mets are worried about ticket prices for 2010? Damn right they should. When the FO signs Marlon Byrd for Left and Joel Pineiro and Bran Backe to fill out the rotation, I’d love to see how Minaya is going to spin that.
This organization is in no position to be stingy about a gad damn “5th yr”. You want a winning team, SPEND MONEY! This isn’t Kansas City for crying out loud. Yes, I know its not my money, but we all know this team has more than enough thanks to money coming off the books, the new stadium, the network, naming rights etc etc etc…
The obvious rebuttle “So youre saying the Mets should over pay?”
YES! As much as I hate the Yankees, after what happened to them in 2009, they went out and did what they had to do to bring the title back to the BX. This winning mentality does not seem to exist in Queens!
THINK LIKE A WINNER…
*After what happened to them in 2008.
“When the FO signs Marlon Byrd for Left and Joel Pineiro and Bran Backe to fill out the rotation”
If they do that you have every right to be pissed. However, I see no signs pointing to that being their plan.
I didnt mean Marlon Byrd in particular, just that caliber of player.
They have not really even been linked to that caliber of player in LF yet. Besides a few articles saying if they ended up with Lackey they might look at Rivera.
Once Bay is gone (assuming the Mets dont sign him), who’s left?
Why are we assuming they don’t sign him? Omar’s plan all along has been to improve LF.
Bay is a lock to be a Met. They will sign him at all costs…
I agree that the Mets plan has not been foiled.
But I also agree that the plan might not necessarily have been the best one. I hope Lackey wanted to go to Boston all along. Because he signed for the market value established last season by the Burnett/Lowe signings and did not invent a new stratosphere are some here were suggesting he was going to do.
I’ll be very disappointed if we eventually learn that the Mets could have had Lackey for around what Boston paid.
It is highly unlikely at this point that the Mets will be able to obtain a legitimate #2 starter and will have to hope one of their own takes a big, if not flukey step forward or hope they can get lucky with a change scenery guy in a trade.
no faith in big pelf?
I have faith in him to be an innings eater type who will have his good days and his bad.
I have little faith that he will become a front of the rotation starter.
agreed
I think there is a good chance he can develop into a #3 with a ceiling of Lowe. I do not think he will suddenly become that next year.
I agree that it is not the plan I would pursue. My thought on Lackey is that if the Redsox offered 5/85 what would we have had to offer to persuade him to come to the Mets?
According to Jayson Stark of ESPN, in addition to receiving Roy Halladay, the Phillies will receive $6 million from the Blue Jays, as well as pitchers Phillipe Aumont and Juan Ramirez.
In addition, the Phillies will receive outfielder Tyson Gillies from the Mariners in exchange for Cliff Lee.
The Phillies will send pitcher Kyle Drabek, outfielder Michael Taylor and catcher Travis D’Arnaud to the Blue Jays.
Happy HALLADAYs fellow Met Fans!
I’ll ta ya though, I think
The Phils gave up ALOT to
get Halliday. ALOT!
Again, Taylor and Drabek are
REAL SERIOUS prospects. Potential AllStar type players. And my man Brock’s
Emerald City Capt. Nemo’s
have quickly turned from horrible, saddled with horrible contracts to serious
division contenders in less
than a year. Now THAT’S GMing
TRS!!!
No doubt the M’s have really done a great job. I think some of that comes from the fact that they have not spent their wad of prospects already. The Mets have sent a ton of prospects in the Loduca, Delgado, Santana and Putz deals.
Prospects???
TRS, you do know theres a draft every yr,
right?
Yep and when you continually sign type A FA to improve your team and won’t go over slot (until this year) your farm-system is going to be thin. Do you realize just the sheer number of players traded in those 4 deals?
There’s a diff b/t player and prospect,juunowatemsayin’?
Uh???? Not sure what you are talking about?
My point is: The Mets have sent a ton of prospects in the Loduca, Delgado, Santana and Putz deals.
Your point is that they should have restocked. I agree but that is hard to do when you trade away 16 prospects for those players?
Phillies still kept their top prospect in Brown AND received good prospects from the Seatle while getting the best pitcher in baseball.
Good job Amaro Jr.
Its a real question whether Brown is a better prospect than Taylor and also
as to if Halliday gives them any more than they got from Lee.
PLUS receive $6M. Great job, Amaro.
Well see!
I’ve actually seen Taylor and Drabek and think both are gonna be real good.
As good as Hallidays been,he’ll need to have the best season of his career to one-up Lee
and what he
gave The Phils last season.
If Halladay one ups Lee’s numbers from last year then it won’t matter what anyone in the NL does. I don’t see him having that much better numbers. Lee was quite impressive. Especially in the playoffs.
No doubt TRS, I saw all but 2or3 of Lee’s starts(on TV down here) after they got him and ofcourse all his playoff starts and it was unbvelievable how good he was
I agree on the short-term it looks very good for the Phillies. Time will tell about those prospects and if Halladay for 6 years is a good thing.
Agreed, pretty much.
I just don’t see Halliday(as much as I know hes great)giving them any more than what Lee did in ‘09.
Yeah, it’s a good move for them in the short-term for sure. I just wonder about the length of the contract and the prospects given up. Time will tell if this was worth it. I wonder if it was that Lee would have wanted the same cash or even would not guarantee signing with Philly>?
I started this off season not particularly high on any of the FAs.
This blog swayed me toward signing Lackey, supplemented by, say Cameron in LF.
Now I’m rooting for Bay, because I’m remembering the most important comparison for the 2010 Mets:
last year’s team.
I was optimistic in April. Most of you were too, I bet. We had no way of anticipating major injuries to 3 of our 4 best regulars. Well, we have the same lineup to begin this year, minus Delgado. Bay seems like a natural replacement for CD:
-a “guaranteed” 30 HR if healthy
-could hit .300, might be around .260
-slightly below average defense at a non-premium position
So if we sign Bay, you have just as much reason to be enthused about 2010’s lineup as 2009’s. Murphy at 1B instead of LF. Francouer instead of Church in RF.
And we might have a better catcher.
and we might have gado back depending if he can still swing it in PR. I agree bay/holiday is a must at this point but im just concerned with the rotation….
Delgado’s return would really make things interesting. If they do that I hope they give Murphy regular ABs at Buffalo.
You can also add this to my projected lineup:
-Bay will be a better LF than Murphy (QED)
-Murphy is more nimble at 1B than Delgado
Instantly improved defense!
We’re starting with the same rotation, it’s just that hopes/expectations for Pelf, Maine, & OP have sunk. Maybe plummeted. We know we need a #2, maybe a #2 and a #3.
Same closer. One of the best, at least on paper.
I don’t see any equivalent for Putz’s arrival last year.
WHY?
Why does Omar get the benefit of the doubt that he will do what is needed to improve the team?
Why is it that other teams can make the deal to trade for a player or sign the free agent but we can’t seem to be able to?
Why is it that if we were supposed to be aggressive this off season we seem to be doing anything but?
Why is it if Omar and Jeff said on the WFAN that they will spend the money needed to improve the team Lackey is signing with Boston?
Why is it that Seattle seems to be doing more to get to the post season than we are?
Why is it the Mets always seem to have a reason to explain away why they couldn’t land/get a player?
Umm, b/c many in the media like Omar since hes so accessible and umm b/c most
like Mr.Wilpon b/c hes a nice
and good man.
If thats not it,I’m with you
MrNJ…Don’t know..
Why? Uh let me try and calm your nerves with things you will disagree with.
Omar gets the benefit of the doubt in my mind that he will improve the team because we have been competitive every year except for injuries last year. Certainly he could have done more but each year he did make moves to improve the team.
It’s December and if Omar has proven anything he can sign big FA and there are still 2 of the 3 out there. As for the trades, as I pointed out to Fongy we traded away 16 players for Loduca, Delgado, Johan and Putz.
There is no sign that we have not been aggressive. We made the first legit offer to any of the big 3 FA and were rumored in many deals at the GM meetings. We were also rumored to have offered Lackey a contract close to the same time we offered Bay.
Omar and Jeff most likely will spend money to improve the team but that does not mean that they would go 6/108 to get Lackey as we would have had to outbid Boston and even then who says the Sox would not have matched that offer? Perhaps those arm issues are not something the Mets want to chance 6 years on.
Seattle is doing a great job and had tons of prospects to move.
Because fans make them have an excuse.
you don’t get any bonus points for making the first move. Sometimes the guy that saves some ammo for later gets a bigger prize.
There have to be some trades coming, along with FA signings, even though some people seem to feel the mets missed all their opportunities, and are planning to take the rest of the winter off to lie on the beach at Cabo.
And just because Lackey was the ‘big name” FA SP, doesn’t mean he ws really that good, or worth the money. And like TRS keeps saying, maybe he preferred Boston, the AL, or whatever. 6 years for this guy? Nope.
and since the probability of getting halladay (and now, Lee) was always off the chart low (IMO), the Mets didn’t miss anything.
So maybe they made the best offer they thought was safe for Lackey, and Boston blew it away. OK, move on.
Agreed.
I’m not complaining about the Mets missing out on these guys as Bay will be here but I’m more conercened with what Omar does after that.
Omar stopped his offseason after signing Putz and K-Rod and the ridiculous Perez signing. I dont want him to make the same mistake by getting Bay and Molina and then making another bonehead signing…
Omar gets the benefit of the doubt in my mind that he will improve the team because we have been competitive every year except for injuries last year. Certainly he could have done more but each year he did make moves to improve the team.
Sorry even last off season with the revamping of the pen He left too many holes imo that should of been addressed and wasn’t and even if you dismiss that during the season when Beltran went down and he did nothing and that I cannot forget.
It’s December and if Omar has proven anything he can sign big FA and there are still 2 of the 3 out there. As for the trades, as I pointed out to Fongy we traded away 16 players for Loduca, Delgado, Johan and Putz.
Yes we can sign an outfielder but 1 outfielder does not an off season make the Mets must address their Starting Pitching. and barring a trade which the Mets seem to not have the ability to do so far the options are slim after Marquis imo.
There is no sign that we have not been aggressive. We made the first legit offer to any of the big 3 FA and were rumored in many deals at the GM meetings. We were also rumored to have offered Lackey a contract close to the same time we offered Bay.
So we are Aggressive at being rumored about and making initial offers. Great, I feel better now.
Omar and Jeff most likely will spend money to improve the team but that does not mean that they would go 6/108 to get Lackey as we would have had to outbid Boston and even then who says the Sox would not have matched that offer? Perhaps those arm issues are not something the Mets want to chance 6 years on.
Again why even say you will spend the money if when a team goes above your offer you back out. Boston a team with great pitching to begin with don’t seem to concerned about his arm but somehow the Mets lack the imagination to figure out what it would take to get him here.
Seattle is doing a great job and had tons of prospects to move.
What does that say then about our farm system?
Because fans make them have an excuse.
too bad that is all we can make them have.
I did not say you would like them and I am not going to take the time to counter all of these. You have good points and I offer the counter point to each of them. We know where we stand.
I agree. Signing one of the biggest names of the offseason each year doesn’t make you a winning team. It means you know how to outspend the competition.
If they felt Lackey, Halliday, et al. were too costly/not realistic I cannot disagree but Omar needs to address these holes and throwing money at the “best” available mediocre player is not acceptable and clearly it doesnt work.
Given his inability to acquire a supporting cast for his big signings each of the past 3 years, I have no faith that we will do so this year…
You think they will actually make an offer for Chapman?
To me if you are going to err then err on the side of players like Chapman Players with a high upside when it comes to potential.
But then again we probably can’t afford him.
no way we get Chapman. Red Sox already got an offer out and the Yankees will soon follow. We cant outbid them…
unless Omar plays the latino card. I dont see why he would choose us.
What is the Latino card? That Omar is Latino so he should come here? If he is that stupid then we don’t want him.
The following is a sarcastic caricature and should not be taken as my actual reply:
C’mon TRS, you can read the tea leaves. Omar is the hispanic GM of Los Mets and big white pitchers from places like Colorado and Texas don’t want to come here, only swarthy guys from Staten Island or guys whose names end in vowels want to pitch for Los Mets and Omar, you know what I’m sayin’?
(Yes I realize “Aroldis Chapman” doesn’t end in vowels, how it makes no sense is part of the caricature)
its no secret the Mets are more latino friendly than other clubs. I think the Omar anti-white thing is ridiculous but I do understand why Tommy G or Billy Wagner would prefer Atlanta to NY.
Its not racist or anything but to ignore it as haxing some influence on a players decision to go here is ignorant.
Obviously it is quite a secret to most of baseball besides internet garbage.
Wagner would prefer Atlanta because Atlanta is in the south and he is a southern boy. Not because the Mets had a few Latino players. This is just insane and I need to move back to rational thought.
Other than Carlos Delgado claiming this, I have never heard or read any fact based suggestion of this, and even Delgado after he finally came here backed away from his previous remarks.
Omar can speak spanish to him, make him feel more comfortable. A young 21 year old who speaks no english would feel more comfortable on the Mets with a spanish speaking GM and a large latino influenced clubhouse than the Yankees or Red Sox. that is the latino card…
think about it? If you are an italian american or a New Yorker playing in the Japenense league would you feel more comfortable playing for Bobby v or a japenese manager.
its a pretty simple concept…
Oleo not for nothing but Chapman speaks but one language, Show me the $$$$$$$$$$$$
while that is mostly true…if the money is relatively the same, The Los Mets concept can maybe be a factor…
The Los Mets thing is internet garbage spewed by the naive.
What some people fail to realize is that “los mets” is actually derived from the spanish language equivalent of “mets.com” and every team in beisbol has one of these, not just the Mets.
Shhhh Grave. It’s much more fun to be ignorant and spew garbage that actually hurts the Mets reputation.
Silliness. Did any of you see the footage of Reyes getting Shawn Green to dance in the dugout during the 06 NLCS? Winning makes everybody friends.
Good for the Mets, and the Wilpons, in hiring Omar to run the FO. Whatever your assessment of his job performance, his presence is groundbreaking, and good for MLB.
Delgado’s arrival in 06 might have allowed Beltran to shake off his first year in NY and have his monster season. Santana’s word maybe played a role in signing K-Rod. People in all jobs appreciate it when someone understands their experiences, their paths, whether they’re from Puerto Rico, Venezuela, or Kentucky. I can’t imagine that the cerebral Glavine felt the NY clubhouse too Latin for his comfort, or discernibly more Latin than Atlanta. Or Wagner–remember, he mouthed off in Philly about players primping, so I think his remark about players escaping the nightly media guantlet was Equal Opportunity; he’s just ornery.
Anyway, the “Anglo” face of the Mets (DW) happens to be one of the most congenial and humble stars in MLB, if my perception is accurate. And if he appears to loosen up with a full year of Francouer as a teammate, it’s not because the team had been too Latin. It’s just how transient careers work.
Hope you’ve all seen the movie “Sugar.” Excellent baseball movie. Excellent movie.
That’s an incredibly naive concept.
What is that large Latino influenced clubhouse now? How is it even anymore than most clubhouses? You don’t think that other teams have guys that can make a Latino feel comfortable?
God this stuff gets on my nerves.
even Cerrone has noted that the Mets clubhouse speaks spanish and more latin than other teams. Jose blasts his reggaeton and is dancing throughtout the clubhouse. That doesnt happen in Boston or in the Bronx
its not a bad thing its just b/c of the make up of the players. The Mets clubhouse are lead by Santana, Wright, K-Rod, Reyes, Delgado (if he’s back) and Castillo.
your GM speaks spanish. Maybe this impact will be less b/c of the departure of Bernizard but its still a factor in some regard…
How the hell do you, or Cerrone, know what happens in clubhouses in Boston and the Bronx?
Oh Even Cerrone has noted it. My bad. Discussion over. You win.
You GM speaks English too so maybe all the English speaking FA will feel more comfortable. Or perhaps because the Wilpons are middle age- to old white guys we can sign Randy Johnson as well.
Perhaps with Manuel as manager we will have a better chance to get Crawford because they will be listening to their rap music together.
Suddenly Wright is Latino?
b/c Cerrone and other beat writers have that kind of access and he’s mentioned it specifically on his site many times.
Cerrone is not a beat writer, he is me but with a connection to SNY and any clubhouse that is not the Mets clubhouse that he is in is a visiting clubhouse, he is not in the Red Sox clubhouse in Fenway nor is he in the Yankees clubhouse in the Bronx, or the Phillies clubhouse in Philly or the Braves clubhouse in Atlanta, the comparison is specious at best.
Last year: Sheffield, JJ Putz, Reed, Green, Takahashi, Broadway, Brown, Sullivan, Francoeur, Redding, Misch, Fossum, O’Day.
Oleo, sometimes you are reasonable, and sometimes you are SOOOOOO clueless.
And yeah, when the Red Sox were led by Ortiz, Pedro, and Manny, I am sure there was NO Latin culture, music, or Spanish spoken in their locker room.
Cerrone just does what we do here. Take information from other sites.
If you buy into media garbage, as you clearly do, then we can’t have this discussion really.
Seriously, what gets more hits. “Omar does due dilligence and investigates Abreu” Or “Omar’s Los Mets favor Abreu”?
Come on, don’t let the internet play you that way.
trs
well considering every GM in baseball speaks english I dont think Minaya’s ability to speak english holds any additional value.
Minaya’s ability to speak spanish is something of value when courting spanish speaking Free Agents.
failing to acknowledge this shows your completely clueless when it comes to how business works.
Really, so Omar is the only GM in baseball that speaks Spanish? How do YOU know Cashman does not speak Spanish?
To say that they favor that is to also admit that a white player would prefer to play for a white gm. If all this is true then we need to go back and protest and have the civil rights movement all over again.
There is a good ole boy system in every business but to say the Mets make decisions based on if a guy is Latino or not is just plain stupid. A business will hire the best guy for the company, especially if the ceo’s job is on the line.
I would guess Omar speaks primarily with player agents unless there is a full press courting mission.
Another great point Wanny.
Geez, The Angels’ owner is Mexican, that must be why Lackey left…wait, KRod left too…does Matsui speak Spanish? Does Abreu?
Could we be more idiotic to try and convince Oleo of reality when his mind is made up?
language and race is an entirely different topic.
im not talking about language. You see it hockey. You see it in soccer.
Back when Jaromir Jagr was traded to the NY Rangers, the next season after the lockout they signed about 5-6 players from the Czech Republic. coincidence I think not?
Alex Ovechkin is the best player in the NHL and you think its a coincidence they haxe a huge number of Russian players??
you feel more comfortable with your own kind. its not racist or bigotry or anything its just how it is…
Stop it with this immature discussion that will go nowhere.
Oleo — I think there is some merit to attracting free agent players by putting them somewhere they will feel comfortable speaking their own language, enjoying their own culture, etc.
But Omar Minaya will not be in the clubhouse hanging out with players on a regular basis.
LOL Wanny. And with Tony B gone they won’t even be any wrestling match challenges.
agreed but maybe its just me but if the GM courting me is speaking to me in my own language and not through an interpreter Im gonna feel more comfortable signing with him.
Explain that to Delgado who rejected the use.
Delgado was turned off by it which is further evidence that it does exist. Delgado felt belittled by Minaya’s using of the latino card.
Delgado felt belittled by BERNAZARD’s behavior, which, as events have clearly shown, was a reflection on Bernazard being a psycho idiot, NOT a reflection on the Latino DRIVEL.
Not by Omar’s but by the fact that Tony tried to use it.
Players would be insulted by it not persuaded by it.
No one questions whether Omar is Latino.
The question is whether any player cares.
A players last regular and substantial interaction with the GM is most likely the day he signs his contract.
After that, a young Latin guy will have to speak Spanish (or whatever it is that makes this hypothetical player comfortable) with his teammates, his coaches or with his friends in the community.
wanny
it definately isnt the main reason but the fact that the Mets have a larger percentage of spanish speaking players as their core impacts a players decision to play for a certain team.
sure money talks but if all else is equal it might be a big factor…
That’s more to my point, Oleo. Your point was that Omar being Latino made a difference.
We are generally in agreement if your point is that some Latino players might prefer to play on a team with others.
Of course, in many instances Latino players might prefer to play where they get paid most, where they have the best chance of winning, where they won’t have a huge media pressure or where their families live.
I can’t really think of a team where a Latino would not feel comfortable in the MLB.
You know, there is too much going on today to get into this incredibly insane discussion. The fact that you actually used Matt Cerrone as a way of proving your point to me discredits anything else you have to say on this discussion. Lets move on.
+ Many
I think it depends on if they separate their MLB cash from their MILB cash. They have wanted to make their farm better, that does that.
Why can’t we afford him again? None of these moves have been made because we can’t afford them. Even Lackey was not that we could not afford him, it’s that we did not think he was worth the price he would have gotten or that he never wanted to come to NY.
if the Yankees want him bad enough, they can outspend any other team in baseball.
Of course they can, but that’s different from saying we can’t afford him.
I appreciate Costa’s measured approach, and I especially appreciate his allowing me and other fans this: “You can argue that they should have pursued Lackey all along, rather than making an offer to Bay.”
But there’s nothing but high blood pressure to come from arguing about that now, what’s done is done. Gotta move forward.
I find it harder to figure out who the truly helpful starting pitcher(s) will be that the Mets can get, but that’s not my job, it’s Omar’s, and he still has (IMO) ’til pitchers and catchers report to get that done.
Agreed Grave. Wanted Lackey but if we had to top Boston’s offer I am not sure it would have been wise. Done and gone now.
I think Omar will still look to the trade market for a SP after signing Bay and Molina.
Agreed the sad thing all this talk about let’s wait and see what the team looks like on Opening day or like you said Omar has “’til pitchers and catchers report” sounds very Deja Vu like to me and in all honesty it scares the shyt out of me.
Question that no one can answer. Were the Mets good enough last year? All we know is that they were competitive when the players got injured and stayed in the race for a month after they were injured. Those are facts. Everything else about what would have happen last year is all speculation. So in my opinion it is not fair to say Omar did not do enough last off-season when we never saw the finished product. Also other variables. Do the Mets make the push for Agonz or Halladay during the season last year IF they were legitimately still in it at the deadline?
this is where I disagree. I dont believe we would be a playoff team last season even if everyone was healthy.
Wright was a mess, Pelfrey had a set back, Ollie was worse than even I expected. I think we would of been somewhere around .500 on the year. Murphy, Tatis and Nick the Stick came back to earth. Omar really overrated the team last year…
of course this can be debated forever but just how I see things…
LoL, I knew you couldn’t resist.
You say it’s “not fair to say Omar did not do enough last off-season when we never saw the finished product” find me the rule book that says that.
You are in all your right to question if your club did all they could. The fact is we were competitive and when Beltran went down Omar did nothing because he said we just had to wait for the cavalry to arrive in the meantime we got worse with every passing week and he did nothing.
I will never ever forget that and I was ok with him coming back but he imo had to make amends for dropping the ball last year and well I am still waiting.
Do the Mets make the push for Agonz or Halladay during the season last year IF they were legitimately still in it at the deadline?
What has omar done to make you think he would of?
In the end we still don’t know. We can say in our opinion Omar did not do enough but how do we know?
As for your point on Beltran, don’t you think it’s possible that Omar knew those guys were not coming back?
I am not sure he did not. I am sure he knew more about those injuries than we did.
All I keep hearing are excuses.
Not making an excuse. Do you know for sure that Omar did not know? Do you know for sure that we would not have continued to be competitive the entire year baring injuries? I know I can’t say for sure on either one and would have a hard time saying the opposite as well.
Did I know for sure?
You kidding right?
All I can say is the offseason isn’t over the last time I checked it wasn’t february yet allot can still be done in 2 months
The following is a sarcastic caricature and should not be taken as my actual reply:
Yeah but Omar is stupid and loves old broken down latin players and the Coupons are cheap and all they care about is the Dodgers and David Wright is unclutch and Citi Field is too big and the walls are too black and February is black history month.
Reyes disappears in September, Beltran is soft, no free agent would ever want to come here, everyone rips Omar off, Francouer is the worst outfielder EVER by any statistical evaluation, we never should have traded Gotay, and we should have signed MANNYMANNYMANNY.
I think we should band together and go UBER-NEGATIVE and blow these pseudo-negative poosies out of their cold comfort of pseudo-negativity!
LOL! SO true.
We could argue their side far better!
As Bum Phillips used to say about Don Shula, “He could take his and beat yours, or he could take yours and beat his!”
OK, so was yesterday Hiroshima or Nagasaki for the Mets (Japan)?
I would guess that for Los Mets, it was more like the defeat of the Spanish Armada!
Well played, sir.
Gracias!
Domo Arigato!
So what if this is the plan if the plan sucks? Where in that plan do we net the needed number 2 behind Johan in the rotation???!
Under this plan, we get a .274 hitting, defensive-liability LF who is older than the other FA LFer, an over the hill catcher and yet another 3/4 to add to Maine and Pelf.
At this point: fine, upgrade with Bay, roll the dice that Molina can still crouch and then stand up again which is an upgrae over Schneier, but you HAVE to cast a WIDE net for SPs (Marquis AND Piniero and pic/choose a flier out of the Sheets, Bedard, Wang trio).
Meanwhile, somebody remind Omar that Frankie needs a set up man.
Remember when this franchise knew that PITCHING wins.
So what should they have done so far Gip? Traded for Halladay or given Lackey 6 years?
thats not it. most Met fans arent sold on the fact that Omar is going to trade for a legit #2 SP
Neither am I. That’s not the point. The point is do you think they should have traded for Halladay or given Lackey 6 years? If not then it’s unfair to criticize at this point.
I think they should. I know the consequences maybe significant, but Mets should have gone hard after those two.
What is hard? 6 years for Lackey and 108+? Trading Pelfrey and maybe Reyes even for Halladay?
I think I already know your response to this, but it just seems that Omar/Mets FO has given up on getting Lackey and Halladay just because of their cost.
If I were Omar/Mets FO, I’d publicize my offer to Lackey or to BJays. And I mean a legit offer. If Lackey and Halladay decide to go elsewhere, then the blame is not on the Mets. But what did Omar/Mets FO do? nothing. NOT A THANG!
I’m pretty sure that Omar/Mets FO has decided to wait out and see if their price drops. Just like the way they used to Santana. Problem is that BJays are not Twins. BJays probably learned from the whole Johan trade and when they saw an offer they liked, they took it. Unlike Twins, BJays/Lackey knew that as time goes by, their prices will drop.
I agree with you. I think this is what happened.
Omar/Mets FO knew that #2 SP is the top need for this team. But the cost was too high for Halladay/Lackey. Supposedly BJays were asking for Reyes and pitching prospects. And as for Lackey, it would take 85+M to bring him here and the Mets FO did not want to commit that much $$ in a SP with previous arm problems. So they were probably talking to other teams to bring in a #2 via trade and wasn’t going anywhere.
So the plan B was to get offense heavy & sign 2nd tier (or more like 3rd tier) SP. They saw Holliday was too expensive and didn’t want to deal with Boras. So let’s go with Bay.
I think the plan would work IF they are willing to take some risks on Sheets, Bedard, or Wang. I mean if the Mets get Bay and Delgado, even with a crappy catcher, you still have very good offensive lineup
Reyes
Castillo
Beltran
Bay
Wright
Delgado/Molina (if they get Molina instead)
Frenchy
Catcher/Murphy (if they get Molina instead)
That’s a pretty good lineup (if healthy). And then go out and get Davis/Marquis AND Sheets/Bedard/Wang
Johan
Sheets/Bedard/Wang
Pelf
Davis/Marquis
Maine/Ollie
IF that’s the roster in 2010, I think the Mets would be competitive against the Phillies.
the BIG question is… Is this what the Mets FO has in mind?? We’ll find out….
until we develop better pitchers than John Niese and Bobby Parnell…its going to take a while…
Huh, so you know what Niese is already?
i know he’s nothing special. He might be a middle of the rotation guy but he’s no Doc Halladay…
Hmmm, neither is Blanton or Moyer what is your point?
my point is we should start developing our own top of the rotation guys through the draft instead of buying everyone else’s or banking on some 16 year old kid you just signed…
How does that defend your point about Niese? Or the fact that we have not traded Pelfrey, Mejia or Holt. Looks like the fact that we have now been hesitant to trade pitchers that we are trying to follow that model.