Cooperstown Bound?
Posted by halfmanhalfamazin on 8:00am, Wednesday December 9th 2009
Not even through the Winter meetings in early December and I feel we could all use a break from debating over the same few names. So, let’s discuss a topic that MLB followers will toss around for years to come since it hits right here at home. I often play the Hall of Fame game with a few of my buddies where we name an athlete with a solid career and we discuss their Hall of Fame credentials. Take our “current” Mets first basemen Carlos Delgado:
Delgado’s first full year was in ‘96 in Toronto where he made an instant splash batting .270 with 25 homers and 92 RBI’s. He spent the next 8 years as a Blue Jay where he never hit less than .262 , blasted less than 26 homers, or batted in less than 91 RBI’s. That’s consistency, but here are a few things to consider: playing in Canada Delgado never really got recognized as a superstar. After back to back titles in 1992 and 1993, Toronto regressed tremendously and was considered a small market team. The Blue Jays never made the postseason when Delgado was there, and haven’t since he left. Despite big numbers, Delgado only made 2 All Star appearances in his career! It wasn’t until 2003 (.302, 42, 145) that he was even considered for MVP (he finished 2nd that year to A-Rod). Delgado left the Blue Jays in ‘05 for the Florida Marlins where he began tearing up National League pitching just as much as the American League. In the 4 seasons with the Mets afterwards, he hit 38 homers and 100+ RBI’s twice. We really never saw evidence of his bat slowing down until this year, 14 seasons into his impressive career.
So how can we measure Delgado up against current Hall of Famers? Of course there is the 500 club. Nowadays the unspoken rule is that if you reach 500 homeruns you are almost automatically going to Cooperstown. Delgado is sitting on 473…and counting. Nothing is guaranteed, but I would feel comfortable saying barring any health issues he will reach that plateau. He is 30th all time in homeruns and is en route to passing Hall of Famers like Willie Stargell, Stan Musial, Lou Gehrig, and Eddie Murray. He is also 49th all time in RBI’s with 1529 en route to passing Joe D and Harmon Killebrew. In fact, Delgado is 1 or 2 years away from an elite crew: 500 HR’s/500 doubles/1500 RBI’s, a feat which only 10 other players in history have accomplished.
Here is something else to consider which may be the dealbreaker altogether: Carlos was one of the lone all-star sluggers in the 90’s who was NOT associated with steroids. That may mean we have to look at his stats a little differently. While other guys like Palmeiro, Bonds, Canseco, McGwire, Sosa and even Manny were putting up ridiculous numbers, Delgado was getting his 37 Homeruns or so a year without the juice. Now think what you may of how steroid use can really affect your swing, but the fact that Carlos was one of the few all-stars that didn’t touch it will only help his campaign.
The knock on Delgado may be on the defensive side where he was never really known for his glove. Delgado spent a few seasons rotating from First Base to DH when he was in the AL. Some can argue that a Hall of Famer should have a complete set of skills both offensively and defensively. Others can argue that Shaq will be in the Hall of Fame on the first ballot, yet he is one of the worst free throw shooters of all time and coaches had to take him out in his prime at the end of big games.
I could never decide how I felt about Carlos’s career until I did this research. A Hall of Famer to me has to be consistently great. A few big 35+ homer seasons will not get you there, but 13 sure will…and counting. I do not have a doubt Delgado will reach 500 homers, and when he does, Cooperstown will be the next stop.
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As long as he goes steroid rumor free and gets to 500 he IS a HOF 1st ballot.
Agreed, but it’s amazing that he only made two All-Star teams. Probably a combination of playing for Toronto for many years (low recognition team) and 1B having such tough offensive competition.
I am sure Toronto has a part in that. Interesting that he has finished high in the MVP votes more than he has been an all-star. I have not checked stats but I wonder if he has always been a 2nd half player?
When did Omar resign him?
He has not. I see where you would get that from. I guess he was referring to last year.
Definitely has not re-signed him yet, but that will bring me to my next question of whether we should. My initial response is no but to be honest I dont see a replacement out there worth going after..unless we are willing to spend the big bucks on adrian gonzalez or someone like that. Might not be the worst thing having him back for a year
If he will come back for 1 year and 5 million or less (with incentives back to 10M) then I think we would be stupid not to.
I agree. Murphy should give enough breaks for Delgado for him to get some rest.
I don’t know if any other team would offer Delgado $5M going upto $10M, especially if he’s going to AL as a DH.
Nice post.
Delgado is also universally recognized (despite the asinine and utterly untrue “He dogged it under Willie” absolute drivel) as a great guy, who gives tons of money and time to charity.
The HOF has always welcomed drunks, wife-beaters, racists, etc, but in today’s sports world, Delgado’s persona should count for even more.
He was dominant for quite a long time, and is a sure HOFer to me.
Agreed.
I’m with you on this.
And I never did buy into that ‘Delgado dogging it under Willie’ theory. Just cannot believe someone like him would deliberately cut off his nose to spite his face….
2003 the guy should have won an MVP but lost it to Aroid who had worse stats.
Delgado
.302 .426 .593 1.019 with 42 HR and 145 RBI
That is incredible.
Agreed totally.
Another great example is Edgar Martinez. Slow, and a poor fielder, but one of the the best righthanded hitters of the last couple of decades. Check out those stats from his prime–unreal.
If he had been a Yankee, he would be going to the HOF. An OBP of about .425 or higher for 7 straight years; an OPS of 1.000 for 6 straight.
He had the sweetest RH swing I have ever seen, without a doubt.
I think the consensus as to why he has not been considered is the DH part. But to me if you are going to hold that against a player then you should get rid of the position.
I don’t think he’s an automatic. And I don’t think in this era 500 HRs will mean as much as it used to.
Delgado’s career is very similar to Fred McGriff’s, especially when you adjust for era (Delgado’s OPS+ is 138 and McGriff’s is 134).
There’s also a lot of competition from 1B with guys like Thomas, McGwire, Bagwell and Palmeiro, etc. who put up equal or better numbers (I’m ignoring steroid accusations for now because writers likely assume the worst for all of them).
I would agree with Thomas but I think the steroid rumors against McGwire, Bagwell and Palmeiro and the current lack of rumors towards Delgado will be a positive. I don’t think the writers are assuming anything based on their voting. However, I guess we would never know.
There’s no evidence connecting McGwire to steroids (other than his poorly articulated Congressional testimony) so the writers are obviously making an assumption in that regard.
McGriff was never close to being as dominant offensively at any point in his career as Delgado was in his prime.
Delgado hit as many as 57 2B, and had 3 40 HR seasons, and McGriff never touched those numbers. Carlos had 115 RBI+ 6 times and McGriff never topped 107. And McGriff played for better teams for the most part.
It is like that across the board for the most part.
Love ya Wanny, but Delgado was a much better offensive player than McGriff.
Who would you take in his prime?
Hey, Kingman, let’s go get some of that Saturday Night beaver…
Welcome to the blog queens.
Thanks, real. Been really occupied to say the least, but I miss you guys.
I was just kind of messing with you but it’s good to have you back.
Hey Qns!! Damn, glad to have you back!
Now I am going to ask you once, where the f*** is Ringo??
I am sure the response will be steroid era but thing is how much of McGriff’s time was also steroid era?
Also McGriff had 1500 more AB’s and PA than Delgado currently has. If Delagdo is semiproductive for 1500 more AB’s his stats will shatter McGriff in all but maybe hits. Delgado has a higher OPS (around .50 points)
McGriff is a great player but in my mind just was not as dominant as Delgado was for a 9 year stretch.
King:
McGriff’s numbers when considered for his era were just as dominant as Delgado’s, hence the only 4 point difference in OPS+.
I don’t feel strongly either way about Delgado’s HOF chances. I just think he’s a close comparison to McGriff, who hasn’t gotten in yet.
And when 1B of Delgado’s era are discussed, Thomas, Pujols and Bagwell will be thought of first (eliminating the confirmed or highly suspected steroid guys).
True, but how about the parks they played in and the teams they were on?
OPS+ adjusts for park effects.
And during the course of their careers, I suspect they both played for good and bad teams.
Rico Brogna was one of hell of a first baseman………
He was my original favorite Mets player. Couldn’t tell you why though, I was just a kid at the time.
Just goes to show you how BAD those mid 90’s teams were. : (
That’s much better than mine. I was a big Jefferies fan.
Jeffries was the man. Alot of kids could relate to him. My guy was Dave Magaden. Ha!
John Milner was my fave as a kid, but before you guys were born maybe….
I have no idea who Milner was, Brock. : ( On another note, I plan on doing a new gig called “On the Lookout”… We’re looking for some new studs to get it on with Rollergirl in the back of my limo…..
Your f***ing films suck now anyway!
So whats the mindframe here? Am I the only one who WONT be attending any games in 2010 if Minaya doesnt make significant moves?
I’ll always attend Mets games! Of course, by means of Nationals Park, so Wilpon doesn’t get any of my money anyway.
Ahhhhh, nice. ; ) I really want those new cream colored jerseys, but wont give a dime if we have a second rate product out on the field.
Who is more important for the Mets?
Holliday in LF? Lackey as a #2? You think we can actually get BOTH?
Why do you want the Jerseys? I had to stare at them for a good 10 minutes to realize the subtle tiny difference.
Lmao.. Personally Im not a huge fan of the bright white pinstripes. Idk, Ive always been a huge fan of the Giants home jerseys. I think the cream is more, dare I say, wearable? Thats just me..
I’m just pulling for the blue hats with the road greys. Granted bashing the Yankees past death is going to always look beautiful, but those jerseys were so nice as opposed to the “I just vomited a two toned black and blue hat” they choose to wear.
Right now I don’t think we can get both. IF Omar is patient it is slightly possible.
IF money was not the issue and you are talking about JUST next year’s team we need Lackey more. After that to me it depends on years and cash as to who we should sign.
I can’t get on Omar here either. Theres just absolutely no reason to give any of these guys long deals. Peneiro wants 4! 4! You haven’t even had 4 good seasons yet. What a joke. I think we gotta trade prospects for a younger cheaper of (maybe an upton, i know its high risk) and sign Lackey. Or trade for the pitcher and sign Holliday.
I would love to trade for Upton if his value was low. Not sure it’s low enough though.
Pineiro can go suck a bug. That would be highway robbery to give him 4 yrs.
IMO it’d be a highway robbery to give him 2. Look at his stats. He’s had a pretty “meh career”
Agreed about Lackey. After Santana there is NO ONE we can feel confident in.
I’m with you and it seems that some of Mets people are finally realizing that.
Say you sign Lackey to 16-17M per. How much do you think is left to spend and who is a good candidate for it?
I’m thinking Mets have something like $25M to spend.
$17M on Lackey
$5M on Delgado
$5M on BP help
No Catcher
Don’t know what to do in LF.
Is that good enough to win? Mets are essentially bringing back same offensive lineup as last year (before injuries). I don’t think that’s good enough to win the division, but should be competitive.
I dont think Minaya would dare put the same product on the field. Someone new will fill in LF whether it be a smaller signing or via trade.
Good point. My thought was that he would trade for LF too. But for who? Hart?
I think Dunn would be perfect.
Remember what he did in the 2006 playoffs? To say he ever dogged it for us is an insult, and to say he was a a clubhouse cancer..it’s all bs. How’d we do at first base after we lost him? I hope Delgado gets into the HOF. He’s a great guy, who for some reason has gained some bad reputations.
Thank you!
Where were you when that moron called Zen at Metsblog used to post anti-Delgado stuff all the time?
Thanks for writing this; it drove me NUTS when people would say this at Metsblog.
I tried to get back onto the blog, but you know I’m don’t belong to the Cerronian Party so I guess I’m not deserving of posting on the greatest blog known to mankind.
Haha! He banned me long ago, and I stopped trying to get back in.
Definitely glad to have you here man!
I still make smart ass post on there just so who ever the screener is has to read them.
Thanks Kingman, I value your opinion as well. (That’s some bromance (Putz reference) right there.)
Agreed! Anyone who follows this game 365 days a year as some us do and have can tell you Gado is a
real class act and
right now a border-
line HOFer stat wise
who will be helped greatly by the steroid antics of
many others during his
era.The notion that he
dogged it is absurd.
Agreed and to me he already has the numbers but if he can have 1 more productive season it’s a lock.
I am going to go insane if I read another poll at Mattsblog. Where do these voters come from?
New poll on 1 year options on catchers. Matt throws in LoDuca as what I thought was a joke and the guy’s got 111 votes 41 more votes than Jason Kendall. Molina is leading with 701 and Torby and Barajas are around 180 each.
LOL, gotta love Mattsblog readers. Oh wait, I voted. What does that say about me?
Not going to lie, I voted for Lo Duca just to see how the poll was going and because while he’s obviously done career wise, Paul Lo even just for the short time he spent here, will always be one of my favorite mets. Talk about a gamer. Just don’t bring your 19 year old daughter to the game!
You crap-head. LOL.
Was Vance Wilson on that list as well?
haha! I hear Jason Phillips’ glasses were there as well.
http://www.nypost.com/p/sports/mets/amazin_puzzled_by_mound_market_mound_X661aTFWaIZ1Gmjy4npCTN
Interesting article by Joel Sherman. I know his credibility isn’t the best out there, but still interesting.
He is saying that the Mets FO are divided on Lackey where he will take up too much of their budget. Hence leaving little money for LF and C. For the LF option, Mets would like to get Hart by trading Maine, but it seems like this deal would only work if the Mets acquired 2 SPs.
Also the Mets are not willing to offer any SP more than 3 years (except for Lackey), which takes Pineiro out of equation since he wants 4 year deal. Also they are not looking to give out more than 2 years for Doug Davis and Garland.
Thanks Kistics.
Trying to get my slackers to get that story up. Oh wait that means I am a slacker. Anyway, discuss…
TR, I agree the Upton thing is very high risk and could be costly. But you gotta take some risks to be successful. I’m not even saying Upton, but someone. As the great Bob Dylan said “The times are a-changing”. Mediocre players are demanding elite level contracts. We’ve watched a young homemade team go from the team that will be great in 06 to a team that has broken our hearts twice and broke down the third year. The clock is ticking my friend. Omar obviously in his potentially last year. This is a pivotal year. This is the year before you finally might have to give up on some of the core or just try to go in a new direction.
As usual I’m late to the party (stupid real life) but I’m with Wanny as far as Delgado and the HOF.
I think if he makes the numbers that only 10 other guys have as the post suggests, he’ll probably make it, but I like to go with the rather subjective phrase “1 of the dominant players of his era at his position” and Delgado somewhat gets lost in the forest of other 1B during his career.
Ultimately I think he goes in, but I wouldn’t be shocked if he didn’t or if it took many ballots to make it happen.
Delgado needs to make it. This article is brilliant.